The same
Orthodox man that had commented on my conversation with Catholics then messaged
me directly (we are not friends). At first, due to his immediate comments, the
conversation started a bit heated. But it calmed down a bit and, despite a
number of ad hominem attacks against me, there was a wide array of topics
discussed. Both the Orthodox and Catholic churches rely on tradition as much as
the Bible. I respect Orthodox and Catholic, as I would rather have them in the
world over people who deny their consciences. However, being moral or religious
is not sufficient. As I will reiterate below, we are all sinners deserving of
Hell, and it is only through Christ’s payment that we can obtain a home in
Heaven- not by tradition or anything we can do. And I will tell the reader now,
the conversation is quite extensive.
Orthodox: I think if you are truly honest with yourself
you'll know is was kinda sneaky to put that whole thing out but sound bite and
delete what was said. Orthodox Christians are being butchered in Syria as we
speak for their Christianity and you have the nerve to say we are not
Christian? we are the first Christians your ancestors worshiped pagan gods our
ancestors evangelized your ancestors and gave you your bible you now
worship....have some respect for the blood that is shed so that you can sit
there in judgment, you should be ashamed of yourself....you play like a big
smart blogger, if you are so sure of
your fundamentalist position then accept my request and let us kindly debate in
a more public setting
Me: I have respect for the blood being shed. This is again
you jumping to conclusions about me and anyone who believes as I do. You start
bombarding me with your religious pictures and then message me with this tone
when I'm not your friend. If you want to have a rational discussion about this,
I'd be happy to do so, but you haven't proven to me you'll be rational. And
your actions over the past couple days is further showing me that.
O: I think its a bit over the top to make me out to se
irrational....although I do vehemently disagree with reform theology, practice
etc, I never once said you are not Christians? my actions? my friend you made
inflammatory comments about my church, you are the one who drew first blood, I
can admit to being maybe a little crass, can you admit to any wrong or are you
not there yet?
Me: It's okay to vehemently disagree with something;
it's how you come off doing it. I vehemently disagree with abortion, but I
logically and lovingly make my case to people, try to see where they're coming
from, and let them have their say.
O: you call me irrational but you aren't able to
refute a single thing I said you just dismiss me as irrational. how irrational
of YOU!
well good but if would read what I said I was also
trying to be loving
Me: That's exactly what I'm talking about. You rant on
a lot of things that were already covered and label me a few things. Then when
I reinforce my last comment that I was cutting out of the discussion you say I
can't "refute" you.
I don't doubt your good faith, but loving is not
accusations or raving on the subject. You can't just preface with that and then
go about it how you'd like. It's easy to be condescending in discussion of
opposing views; I struggle with it, I was raised that way. But you have to rise
above it if you want anyone to see your point.
O: my friend next to nothing that I discussed was
covered. I read it extensively. I happen to think that you are probably a very
well intended young man, but if I am to take your advice on what you said I
would then ask you to think about the ramifications of what you say. saying
Catholics aren't Christian, saying the Septuagint is "completely
inaccurate", those are
fundamentalist positions and you should rise above that. what about the 60
million Holy Russian Martyrs whom I mentioned, do they meet your criteria of a
Christian?
O: I'm Orhtodox and you are Protestant we both
disagree with Rome on things, but would you say that Mother Theresa is not a
Christian?
Me: Catholics are under the umbrella of Christianity,
but aren't biblical Christians. I hold fundamental views because I am
fundamental. I can't stand Russia, but my question is, did they know Christ as
their Savior?
Being moral does not make one a Christian. We are
held to the law which we can't keep, which is why Jesus had to come to take our
punishment.
O: my friend I know you are well meaning, and I am
happy this is a conversation just between us so that we aren't tempted by pride.
[It’s not pride that has me sharing this,
but so that you can see the difference between two “Christian” religions.]
before I respond to anything else, I want to address what you said of the
Russians, again 60 million died for refusing to denounce Christianity. Why do
you "hate" Russia? You as if they know Christ as their Savior, They
believe Christ is the God and master of all creation, who became man and was
crucified, rose from the dead trampling down death by death and upon those in
the tombs bestowing life
Me: I don't hate Russia, I don't like its politics.
Communism for decades, still very shady.
It's good to believe that; did they place their
faith in Him, only in what He can do and not what they can do? We can't know
their hearts, I guess, but that is salvation.
O: you say Catholic Church is not biblical, yet you
are unable to even remotely read the Bible in the language it was written in.
you must know that translation and linguistics impacts interpretation. what is
it you find unbiblical
O: oh we are in 100% communism is forerunner of the
antichrist
O: no one hates communism or suffered under it worse
than the Russian people
O: 100% agreement on communism, sorry go on
Me: I mentioned what I found unbiblical. That impacts
interpretation somewhat, for sure, but the Textus Receptus, what the King James
Version was translated from, matches Hebrew manuscripts 95%, and there are over
6,000 Greek manuscripts that show the New Testament even more accurate.
I would imagine the Russians did suffer the most,
though their satellite states did too. And yes, when you look at the economic
and political structure of the Tribulation, it is similar to Communism.
O: you have to understand that your question as to
weather or not they place faith on Him for what they can do? my friend what a
blessing and a chance for greater understanding! Orthodox do not at all only
believe in Christ because of what He can do. Orthodox Christians have a
vibrant, exciting, passionate personal relationship with Christ, we live our
whole lives to worship Him. We bask in His Glory in prayer and contemplation.
Orthodox call just sitting with God and thinking about Him contemplation. We
live our whole lives for The Lord Jesus Christ.
Me: That is noble, but what I believe is that God
inspired His Word and preserved it for mankind. Psalm says He has placed it
above His name- something very great indeed. It is what we should follow, not
traditions. I place my faith only in Christ's finished work for salvation, not
in tradition, not in "sola scriptura". But the reason the Bible is so
important is that it tells us exactly how to do that.
O: but what if the bible tells us to follow the
traditions we received, weather through word of mouth or by written word? and
greater still what if the tradition pre-dates the bible?
O: and if your church follows a similar routine week
to week, than isn't that also tradition?
O: for example your pastor will read and preach, and
the choir will sing, and there will be an altar call, that is a form of
tradition in and of its self is it not?
Me: First, the Bible starts at the beginning, hence
nothing pre-dates it. My church has a general order of service (that we often
deviate from), but preaching and singing are biblical, as well as responding to
those. It is true that there are certainly traditions- the difference is, we
make sure they don't contradict the Bible, and don't rely on them to gain God's
merit. All the merit we need we have through His Son.
Where do you find in the Bible we are to follow
tradition?
O: well first of all "Merits" is a roman
Catholic concept that developed post schism as a result of scholasticism, the
Orthodox vehemently appose this Latin approach to theology. you said your
Church has a general order of service, my Church also has a general order of
service that we call the Divine Liturgy. During this servive, we sing prayers
to God, listen to several readings from the scriptures including a reading from
one of the four Gospels, and homily or sermon. At the culmination of this
Liturgy, we receive the Flesh and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus
Christ. I still haven't heard you say which of our traditions contradict the
bible. the verse I was referring to is 2 Thess. 2:15
Me: If you were referencing transubstantiation, that
would be one. Infant baptism is another. II Thessalonians refers to the
traditions of the apostles, not a church. And their words are written in the
Bible.
O: well again to word it as
"transubstantiation" is a latin wording resulting from scholasticism.
if by transubstantiation you mean the belief that bread and wine Mystically,
objectively and truly becomes the true Flesh and Blood of the our God, than
YES, the Orthodox do believe this glorious truth. here are the verses straight
from the mouth of Christ God that show this to be the biblical belief...Gn 4:10
, Heb 12:24 , Gn 14:18 ,Heb 7:2
",Ex 24:8 ,Mt 26:28, Ex 34:29,Lv 23:12-13 ,1 Kgs 7:48 ,, Ex 25:8 , Ex
25:22 ,Ex 25:30 ,Mt 28:20 ,1 Sam 21:6 ,Mt 12:1,Lk 22:19 ,Ex 24:11 ,Lk 22:19 ,Ex
12:5-6 ,Mt 27:45 ,Ex, Jn 6:51 12:8 ,Ex 12:13 ,Jn 6:35 Lk 22:20 ,Mt 26:23 Jn
6:52 Jn 10:9 Jn 15:1 Jn 6:53 Jn 6:60 Lv 17:10 ,Lv 17:11 Mt 27:45 Ex 12:6
O: these a just a few of the many. So you say 2 Thess.
2:15 is referring to the apostles? we totally agree.
O: the tradition of the apostles is seen by all
scholars to be what? the Dideche, the Liturgy of St. James and the writings of
the apostolic fathers namely Ignatius of Antioch. the Apostles were Jews, it is
only logical to understand that the traditions of the apostles would include
some form of sacrifice, and as those verses will show you, it was most
assuredly the sacrifice of Christ once and for all....the first Christians were
so Eucharistic that they stopped eating meat, because only the sacrifice of
Christ was there sacrifice. it is undeniable that Christians in Jerusalem and
the Middle East in the first century believed the Eucharist to be the true
Flesh and Blood, this can be demonstrated by reading the writings of first
century Christians
O: and infant Baptism is biblical, in the Old
Testament, Abraham is told to circumcise his whole house hold, in the New
Testament, the Church is told to Baptize the whole house hold. it can be
demonstrated that first century Christians saw Baptism as replacing
circumcision as the sign of the covenant, and it can be shown by reading their
own writings that infant Baptism was practiced from the first century onward.
The term whole house hold is key in a Jewish context. even Jewish Rabbis who
are not Christians will say that in a Jewish context, Baptize the whole house
hold means Baptize infants
O: I suspect we also differ on what Baptism is
O: many Baptist converts to Orthodoxy who have read
the elaborate description of the Jewish Temple in the Old Testament begin to
weep with joy when they see that our Churches are architecturally modeled after
the Temple
O: and i know that the King James OT corresponds with
the Hebrew, but as I said the other night, it corresponds with the Hebrew of
the Masoretic translation. The Masoretic translation is a product of the anti
Christian Jewish council of Jamnia. The Orthodox Churches does not use a
translation at all the Orthodox Church still reads the Bible in the Greek in
which it was written
O: im not saying this to be crass, but many Orthodox
wonder why the Protestants who reject the tradition of the Church, accept the
tradition of the Jews
or better, why they reject the tradition of the
Apostles but accept the tradition of the Pharisees...but im not saying you are
a Pharisee im just saying this is the complexity
O: here is a picture of an Orthodox baptism preformed
according to the Apostolic tradition of the first century Jewish Christians
[picture of baby held after being dunked in water]
O: full submersion is how Orthodox baptize
O: i hope i didn't further offend you brother, hope
you had a chance to read and contemplate the scriptures i sent you
O: you strike me a as a genuine truth seeker, I think
if you do your research you will find surprising how much evidence there is for
Orthodoxy in the scriptures, as well as historical testimony. My goal isn't to
convert you only God can do that. but my hope for our dialogue is that you
become a more well rounded solider for Christ by getting a more honest and
objective look at the bible in its historic context
Me: Hey, I had to sleep. Give me a chance to look over
everything.
Me: In all due respect, most of your verses about the
body and blood of Christ don't even have the appearance of proof. When Jesus
said we have to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, he was speaking to the
crowd that was following Him to get another free meal. He was telling them He
came to provide the spiritual and that they needed Him, not food He could
provide. When He says, "this is my body" and "this is my
blood", He said that in remembrance of Him, not actually consuming Him.
Drinking blood (and obviously eating people) was against their law; Jesus would
not have caused them to sin.
Be careful making generalizations such as " all
scholars ". Orthodox scholars and some secular scholars believe that. They
did believe Christ's sacrifice to be once for all- I'm glad we agree on that.
But redemption doesn't come through consuming Him. Paul stopped eating meat
because he didn't want to cause weaker brothers to stumble, not for this
reason.
How we accept the tradition of Jews and Pharisees, I
would be interested to know.
Only the New Testament was written in Greek; the Old
Testament was in Hebrew. The Council of Jamnia was unimportant in determining
the canon of scripture. It was some rabbinical leaders discussing two books.
Jesus told Satan, " Is it not written... " There was an Old Testament
canon long before this. It is often misrepresented by Catholics and Orthodox,
but it was not a factor.
Circumcision is not at all like baptism. In fact, it
was the common legalistic addition of the day- one that the apostle Paul taught
against adding to salvation. They were told to baptise their house- but only
after salvation. Do you recall the repentant thief on the cross? "And he
said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus
said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in
paradise." (Luke 23:42-43). The thief died on the cross and was never
baptized. We believe baptism to be important as an outward sign of your faith, but
it is not necessary for salvation. Notice also the order of baptism: "And
as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said,
See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If
thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I
believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to
stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the
eunuch; and he baptized him." (Acts 8:36-38). It is salvation (through
faith), then baptism.
I admire your willingness to discuss things, and
pray you will be open to what God and His Word have to say to you.
O: Joe you are well intended but you blaspheme God.
You say the same thig the Pharisees, you question the Lord's words. If you read
the Gospel of John Chapter six you will see that most of the Lord's followers
left Him for His Eucharistic words they say like you "how can this man
give us His flesh to eat?", does He chase them down and say "wait,
its just a symbol? NO Joe, He goes on to say that those who do not eat His
Flesh and drink His Blood will have no life in them. You commit the same sin as
those who crucified Him. You dismiss
first century Christians in Palestine and Antioch where, as your bible tells
you, we were first called Christians, which is proud and arrogant. The first
century Father Ignatius of Antioch says in his famous letter to Rome, "
for the greatest of blasphemers have not yet come, but they shall come and be
the worst of Gnostics, those who say the Holy bread is not the flesh of the
very Christ, who is risen". These words sound like prophecy of the
reformation. You might recognize Ignatius from the bible, he is the child the
Lord lifts up in the crowd in the Gospel of Luke. Joe what makes you think you,
a young English speaking man in 21 century America, understands the scripture
better than a Greek speaking Jewish convert to Christianity in 1st century
Antioch? You say St. Paul didn't stop eating meat because of the Eucharist, but
the bible says otherwise.
You say
the Old Testament wasn't written in Greek, but i have already proven to you
that the New Testament authors, when quoting the Old Testament, quote from the
Greek Septuagint, including quotes from the "Apochrypha". You say the
council of Jamnia didn't effect the canon of scripture you are wrong the
Masoretic has tons of Christological allegory translated out of it. The Dead
sea scrolls, 1000 years older than the Masoretic, overwhelmingly corresponds to
with the Greek. I know you're not going to try to tell me about Hebrew my
grandfather is a Jew i have studied Hebrew and Aramaic extensively for three
years.
you say
you pray i will be open to the scriptures, i pray you are open to the Truth.
please Joe, i know you have a good heart, but please set aside your allegiance
to what is familiar and comfortable, and receive what is true
O: and the verses i gave provide a NT/OT comparison to
show the Eucharist as the source and summit of the Christian religion
O: why was there no reformation in Jerusalem or
Greece, why were there no Christians who believed the way you do until after
the reformation in Northern Europe? why do Greek and Semitic speakers
vehemently reject your understanding of the Scriptures? Joe why do you just
dismiss 2000 years of history without the slightest hesitation? is Joe wiser
than Ignatius of Antioch?
Me: That's like saying the Bible is written in English;
it was translated to Greek, not written in Greek. It doesn't even make sense to
say that the "Old Testament" quotes itself, regardless, neither
Testament quotes the Apocrypha.
I don't lead people astray and am a believer praying
for God's wisdom; that would make one wiser than one who lead people in false
religion. I do not claim wisdom, but over top of a false teacher? Again, SOME
speakers reject this- anyone can have an agenda. No reformation was needed in
Jerusalem because they were true followers of Jesus. There have always been
true followers since He came; who do you think the Catholic church was killing?
It got far enough out of control that some Catholics noticed and broke off. You
act as if your history is that different.
If yours and the Catholic church's tradition are
both apostolic, why are there, as you admitted, many differences? Who is truly
following this tradition we are supposed to hold to?
You failed to attempt to explain away the correct
order of baptism.
Even if your willingness to miss Christ's point was
true, you're still missing the boat on salvation.
O: Joe you just say things that aren't even true just
to say them. Yes Joe, the "Apocrypha" here are the verses: Matt.
6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven
follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto
others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to
others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know
them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the
cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep
without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of
heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon
which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of
death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
O: why didn't you answer me about St Ignatius? I just
demonstrated to you that it can be proven
that the first century Christians in Jerusalem were Orthodox why do you
just dismiss this? you say "there were always true believers" if by
this you mean Orthodox believers than yes, if you mean however that there were
Christians in Jerusalem that denied the presence of Christ in the Eucharist,
than no joe, i already showed you that these Christians believed what the
Orthodox believe today. Why do you act so proud joe, intelligent protestant
admit these things, are you so filled with bigotry and hate that you cant
comprehend information?
O: all you talk about is salvation, obviously you are
clinging to this sort of "once saved always saved " type of drivel,
yet St. Paul says "i am working out my salvation with FEAR AND
TREMBLING"
O: you hate the Roman Catholic Church so much that you
cant even listen to anything an Orthodox Christian says to you...you don't
understand Orthodoxy and you don't understand Judaism. you are a follower of a
northern European religion foreign to the Christianity of ancient Jerusalem, Palestinian
Christians laugh at you people, because to them you are so theologically and
historically false you are like a cartoon.
O: you say things to make yourself fell good, you
dismiss the writings of first century Christians who are Orthodox, you just say
"oh there were always "true" believers" yet you cant quote
any sources that support your outrageous claim, to the contrary, as i have
already showed you, they were against your heresy they called Gnosticism. "the worst of blasphemers have not yet
come, but they will come and will be the worst of gnostics, those whose say
that the Holy Bread is not the flesh of the very Christ who is risen"
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter tp the Romans, 95 A.D.
O: and Joe you seem to think that every time you see
the word "Word" in the scripture you think it is referring to the
bible. That shows how enslaved to the shortcomings of the English language your
theology is....the vast majority of times the English word "Word"
corresponds with the Greek word "Logos" which means the Wisdom and
Power and Mind of God, so Logos refers to God the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ
Himself not the bible
O: Joe i would like to discuss Christianity more, and
again i respect you as a man and i admire your pro life voice and your
courage and your willingness to
converse. And even though i don't see that you have even begun to make a viable
case for Baptist theology or scriptural interpretation, ill give you that you
are trying. But this is not a competition, I will make this the last message i send
you if you are not interested in more Christian dialogue. I want you to
carefully read over the verses I gave you and the witness of ancient Christian
Fathers i presented you with, and at least take from this some perspective not
of your own. Ask yourself Joe, if you woke up tomorrow in Syria, and you were
standing outside of a nineteen hundred year old Syriac Orthodox Church which
still uses an Aramaic language closely
akin to the Palestinian Aramaic spoken by the Lord, and the Church was riddled
with bullet holes, and the door was burnt from a bomb, but the people still
came in and reverently worshiped the Lord Jesus Christ with beautiful prayers.
would you go inside and worship with these faithful children of Christ who have
been His faithful people all along, or would you think you were above them
because as a Baptist fundamentalist you are the ultimate authority on
scripture. here is the problem with the Western coin as they say in the
Orthodox Church. what that means is that the Western churches are two sides of
the same coin. on one side Roman Catholics error in believing that one Bishop
is infallible in his understanding of correct Christian belief, scripture
interpretation and practice, on the other side of the coin the reform churches
error in thinking that EVERY MAN is infallible in his understanding of
Christian belief, scripture interpretation and practice. The Orthodox, on the
other hand believe that the Holy Spirit is infallible. Therefore we derive
belief, scripture interpretation and practice from what the majority of the
Bishops of the Church and the people of the Church have ALWAYS BELIEVED, and
how the majority of Bishops and people have ALWAYS INTERPRETED SCRIPTURE, and
the way the majority of Bishops and people have ALWAYS PRACRTICED....Joe if the
Eucharist isn't real than the Lord's words that the gates of hell would never
conquer the Church did not come true. the ancient Church was the most
Eucharistic Church, with total submission to the Eucharistic life and again
this isn't my opinion this is historic fact. Joe either Christians worshiped
bread and wine for 15 centuries until the reformation, or the reformers
blaspheme and doubt the mystery of our God's Flesh and Blood in the Holy
chalice by saying its only a symbol....please joe it would brave of you to read
all my messages and its the right thing to do...please read all my messages
carefully
O: and Joe your question about how you can know which
tradition Orthodox or RC is the Apostolic Tradition is not a well thought out
question. our Churches differ on Trinitarian Theology (RC and reform share
Trinitarian Theology and both differ from Orthodox) and we differ on our
understanding of the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. But we SHARE the
Apostolic Tradition which is Eucharistic Sacrifice, Sacramental Baptism and
Chrismation and Communion for all Christians, Holy orders of Ordination,
Priesthood, Monasticism, Prayer Fasting and Alms, Seasonal Fasting, Liturgical
cycle of feasts and feast days Comparable to the Liturgical cycle of fests of
the Jews, but centered upon the true Passover, the Death and Resurrection of
the Lord as the highest feast. if you knew anything about Judaism or the OT as
you claim you would know that for Christians Good Friday is the NT equivalent
of Yom Kippur, the Jewish Fall High Holy Day of Atonement. Joe the Apostolic
Tradition is shared by the two Churches, we are just not in Communion. You hate
Catholics but you are much closer to them because of your shared western
Trinitarian theology, than you are to the Christians of Jerusalem, the Greek
Orthodox and Syrian Orthodox Christians of the Holy Land. but even though you
and the RC share a flawed understanding of the Trinity, where your church has
completely created its own Christianity, the RC has at least retained the
APOSTOLIC TRADITION of Sacraments, Liturgy, Feasts and Fasts etc please read
all my messages...even though i don't accept the validity of their sacraments,
the first protestant churches such as Anglican and Lutheran even maintain
fragments of Apostolic Tradition with their Liturgy and sacraments and so
forth. only the Fundamentalists such as Amish and Anna-Baptists in northern
Europe and Baptists and evangelicals in America have totally done away the
Apostolic Tradition...please read all the messages
O: and you talk about salvation in a way as to only
see the death and Resurrection of Christ as the atonement for the sins of
mankind before the justice of the Father, this is not the Gospel. The Lord
Jesus Christ created the universe, His Death and His Resurrection was His plan
from all eternity to conquer death. Christ's Pashca isn't just to redeem man,
Christ's Death and Resurrection has redeemed the whole creation. His Pascha is
the reason why God will be all in all in His creation at the end of time.
Salvation isn't just about the forgiveness of your sins salvation is about
Theosis, it is about becoming an eternal partaker or the Divine Energy, the
Light which created the worlds, the Light which is the Divine Nature of Christ.
to limit your understanding of salvation to just your sins is to castrate your
Christian intellect. that is why salvation is a process. A baptist would ask
"are you saved", the Orthodox say "i was saved when God became a
man and conquered death, i am being saved by worshiping Christ everyday,
repenting from my sins, fighting my passions; and i hope to be saved on that
glorious day when the Mighty Christ God who created all things and redeemed all
things returns to His Creation to Resurrect all things in the presence of His
Uncreated Light.....please read the rest of my messages
O: of the Divine Energy that is
Me: Somewhat similar matches are not quotes. The
Eucharist was created by Catholics and Orthodox based off Christ, not the other
way around. "Protestants" practice something similar, but in
remembrance of Christ as He told us to, not for any redemptive qualities. Paul
told Christians to work out their own salvation. It is every Christian's
responsibility to find what God's Word says and live it out. This, being
written to a born again church, was not telling them to work for their
salvation. You saw at least a dozen passages (many of them from Paul) that
contradict that belief. God was afraid that Israel would think it could work to
save itself, and therefore not give God His due credit: "And the Lord said
unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the
Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying,
Mine own hand hath saved me." (Judges 7:2).
Me: "Logos" is a reference to God's written
word. If you take Jesus' teaching of eating and drinking Him as physical, do
you also take that if your right eye or right hand offend you, pluck it out or
cut it off? Have your eyes or hands ever done anything sinful. I fully expect
you to pluck your eye out and cut your hand off. Christ uses the physical to
help us better understand the spiritual. I am not the ultimate authority on
scripture- that's just it, no man is. Not any church. God is. Any devoted
follower can be resilient and continue believing something in danger. That does
not answer whether it is right.
Me: You still haven't answered my question. If your
traditions are from the same people, then they should not differ. But even if
it is passed down, men are unreliable; God never fails. "If we receive the
witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God
which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath
the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because
he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record,
that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that
hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not
life." (I John 5:9-12). The gospel is for God's glory, but by adding
things to it you dilute it and make it ineffective. "Moreover, brethren, I
declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have
received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in
memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I
delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that
he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen
of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred
brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some
are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (I
Corinthians 15:1-8). Do you see anything about what you talked about here?
There is no hoping you will be saved: "These things have I written unto
you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have
eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I
John 5:13). It's either yes or no.
Me: You've slipped back into making statements without
evidence to support, and relying heavily on the ad hominem fallacy. Consider
what I'm saying and have an intellectual discussion, or else there's no reason
for me to spend my time doing this. I read all of your messages, now please
read mine.
O: intellectual discussion? that's what i'm doing.
what don't you find intellectual in what i said?
ad hominem fallacy? how?
O: you are a liar and your ignorant Baptist heretical
drivel is the reason for atheism, your kind make Christians look dumb, you
still wont dare address St Ignatius
because you are afraid to, you know you are a liar and you know history proves
that you are a liar, be a man big joe, address the fathers of the church, you
quote St Paul in a manner only to say what your opinion of what he says, You
are a joke all Middle Eastern Christians like the people go to Church with
every week laugh at you they see you as the like a dumb retarded hill jack they say that your religion is drivel. .you
are a blasphemer and a mutilator of the scripture, i will see you on campus and
we can sit down like men and hammer out this. if you were intellectual at all
you would address history not dance around it like a big coward. You make a
poor case for Baptist church buddy, you make Baptist look dumb and unable to
address reality all you do is quote verses out of context and put your spin on
it. Address history...God gave you a brain, use it. people think Christians are
dumb because of Christians like you
O: My Priest is from Damascus Syria, like the place
from your bible that you pray to, he says reform theology is so of its like a
mockery of Christisanity
O: you mock Christ, Orthodox worship Christ, you
blaspheme Christ, Orthodox die for Christ, mislead people who hear you and you
make all those who bear the name Christian look like dumb fundamentalist who
are un able to listen or comprehend anything, you tell me to hold an
intellectual conversation but you will not address the things i repeatedly ask
you it is you who is unable to hold an intellectual conversation
Me: "you are a liar and your ignorant Baptist
heretical drivel is the reason for atheism, your kind make Christians look
dumb" "You are a joke all Middle Eastern Christians like the people
go to Church with every week laugh at you they see you as the like a dumb retarded
hill jack they say that your religion is
drivel. .you are a blasphemer and a mutilator of the scripture" And you're
asking me how you're using the ad hominem fallacy? That type of rhetoric was
literally most of your commentary. I addressed Ignatius. Overall he wasn't too
bad, but he was wrong on that. And he never authored any of the Bible, so it
doesn't matter what a man says later on. You're not telling me how I'm taking
things out of context, you're not telling me how I'm wrong and you are correct.
You're just telling me I'm wrong amongst baseless attacks. Which doesn't bother
me, but it's showing me that perhaps the Holy Spirit is convicting you and you
are resisting by lashing out at the messenger. Don't resist the truth. It's not
easy to convert religious beliefs, but there is too much at stake.
O: the demon
you have been deceived into thinking is the Holy Spirit will never
deceive me friend, Those are not baseless attacks joe the point is that you
dismiss the unbroken
O: Apostolic tradition which is preserved to this day.
You don't even understand the Trinity the same way as the Orthodox your
religion is NOT at all similar to Judaism which bears witness to its lack of
antiquity. Orthodox Christianity is the unbroken New Covenant religion of Ancient
Israel that has NEVER left Jerusalem and you dismiss this, so no friend, that
is not an ad hominem, it is that you dance around things you cant answer. and
again how dare you, and English speaking 20 year old college student in 21
century America, say Igantius, a Greek speaking Jewish convert to Christianity
in first century Antioch who met the Lord personally as a child and was a
student of the Gospel writer St.John. you act all smug because of my passion
for this but you STILL have not addressed this.
O: how can you say Ignatius is wrong and you are
right? wht makes your interpretation infallible?
O: I was overly angered by you and should not have
been so harsh, but you dismiss the unbroken unchanged Christianity of Palestine
and as an Orthodox Christian and as a person with Hebraic ancestry that is
offensive....and it makes you look un informed, un loving, and
dishonest...sorry to loose my cool, but you should be sorry for insulting my
people and your people because you wouldn't have a bible were it not for them
Me: That is not just my interpretation. But we
interpret scripture with scripture, rather than pull out one passage and
assume. Since the men Jesus were with were forbidden to drink blood and eat
humans, He would not cause them to sin. And we see in other places, as I
mentioned before, that Jesus uses the physical to talk about the spiritual. Men
cannot always comprehend spiritual things, so they have to be put in ways in
which we can understand.
You mention how similar you are to Judaism. That, to
an extent, I do not doubt nor have doubted. Though I hope you are not still
sacrificing animals. Regardless, Paul spoke many times of the Jewish faith.
They wanted to add circumcision to salvation, Paul told them it was faith
alone. Hebrews extensively addresses this subject as well. It tells us, among
other things, that Christ is a once-for-all sacrifice, "their sins and
iniquities will I remember no more", and there remains no sacrifice for
sins. If at salvation our iniquities are no longer remembered, why are you
continually re-cleansing yourself as if He does. We cleanse ourselves of our
sins by confessing them to God, but we do not believe He ever takes away our
salvation from us as a result.
O: how is your interpretation right about the Eucharist
right, and the witness of historic CHRISTIANITY wrong? what makes you
infallible? you have become your own pope
how can you say Ignatius, who was fed to the lions
for Christ, is wrong and you are right?
Joe what you are saying makes me wonder, do you know
that Christ is God?
Me: I'm not infallible, but God's word is. The pope is
not legitimate because Christ is the only head of the church. I'm not saying
Ignatius wasn't a Christian, he just was wrong on that point. One person can
say anything, can do anything, but that doesn't change what the Bible says.
Would I trust in Christ alone for my salvation if I
did not believe Him to be God?
O: than why do you doubt him and add your
interpretation to His words. The Lord says, " My Flesh is real Food and my
Blood is real Drink", the Lord says "He who does not eat my flesh and
drink my blood does not have life in them". why does the Lord constantly
say these things in this way? why does He allow those who leave Him to flee,
why doesn't He tell them He is speaking of a symbol? why does St Paul say that
people are dying from receiving Communion in an unworthy state if its just
symbolic bread?
O: so you think that the Gospel of St John is
infallible but you believe that St John's own
student, Ignatius of Antioch, had fallen so far into idolatry that he
was worshiping bread?
O: Joe says "The pope is not legitimate because
Christ is the only head of the church" the Orthodox agree
I wish we could talk in person
so St. John was infallible when writing the Gospel
but he was teaching young Ignatius to worship bread? please say you are
starting to see that there is something to this Eucharist thing brother!
O: you say Christ couldn't really mean these things
because that would be cannibalism. interestingly, Josephus a Jewish Roman
historian, in the late 1st century says of the
Church "they commit cannibalism and claim to eat the flesh of their
master, who they say is risen from the dead", Wow. Bro Christ is the
creator of the universe, His Cross and Resurrection destroyed death and
regenerated the universe, when we receive the Lord's Flesh and Blood,
understand that we also receive His Mighty uncreated Light and Fire that
created us. You Believe that Christ dwelled in the Tabernacle and in the bread
of the presence in the OT but you don't believe He dwells in the Tabernacle and
in the Bread which becomes His precious flesh which was sacrificed once and for
all in the NT, this is truly sad
O: you say there is no need for a sacrifice, yet the
Apocalypse (Revelation) says that there will be a sacrifice offered day and
night from east to west until the return of the Lord. Joe please we should meet
for coffee
of course the Sacrifice of the Lord is once and for
all, but the Lord has given us in the New Covenant a mystical way in which to
literally partake of His Divine Energy until His return, the Sacrifice that
Revelation says will be offered day and night is the Eucharist
of course the Sacrifice of the Lord is once and for
all, but the Lord has given us in the New Covenant a mystical way in which to
literally partake of His Divine Energy until His return, the Sacrifice that
Revelation says will be offered day and night is the Eucharist
O: salvation is about so much more than forgiveness of
sins, salvation is about theosis
O: Joe you said to me that the Greek word
"Logos" is referring to the bible? so did the bible create the
universe? because the bible says the Logos created the universe
please brother I like u please read everything I
have written
Me: Why haven't you cut your hand off yet? John never
believed that we eat and drink the Lord. Just because one is a student of
another doesn't mean they will line up on everything. Hence why Ignatius is
nowhere in the Bible. Christ sacrificed Himself to take our sin away. He gives
Christians authority through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We don't have
to eat Him to have His authority. Where do you find anything about getting
"divine energy" through the consumption of Christ? Sacrifices offered
does not mean they are needed. I agree salvation is more than forgiveness of
sins- it is for God's glory, and it changes one's entire life. But there is
nothing added to faith. Lo·gos- 2. Judaism
a. In biblical Judaism, the word of God, which
itself has creative power and is God's medium of communication with the human
race. God communicated through His spoken word in the past. Jesus was the Word
in the flesh. And now God has left us His written Word to communicate with us.
O: Joe i'm sorry but you need to read a little more
about Judaism. I doubt you have a whole lot of background in Judaism so I am
truly going to try not to be sarcastic or crass. i'm writing a masters thesis
on Hellenistic Judaism so i'm no johny come lately to the subject. I've never
heard the term "biblical
Judaism" as you call it, in Orthodox Judaism as Jews call it, the Word of
God is God's Eternal thought and action it translates into Hebrew as
"Mehm-ra"" not "Torah". God spoke the universe into existence (Gen.
1, Psalms 33,). There are two Hebrew Words that the Hebrew scriptures
interchange for this type speech. there is "Mehm-ra"" meaning
God's Eternal action, and "Hok'mah"
or חכמה meaning God's Eternal Wisdom, In the Greek Septuagint they are both
translated as "Logos". So Abraham is visited by the Logos/ Mehm'ra / Hok'mah, not the Torah, the
Logos / Mehm'ra/ Hok'mah speaks to Moses from the burning Bush not the Torah,
the Logos / Mehm'ra / Hok'mah is the one who gives Moses the Torah!!! then, in
the Holy Gospel of St. John Chapter 1 verse 1 how does it read?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the
Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was
not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of
men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not.
O: im not asking this to be sarcastic Im asking
because I truly cant tell from your position, do you believe that Christ
existed before becoming a Man?
O: In context, the Lord tells them if they take from
there brother cut off their hand, if they look with lust upon a woman pluck out
their eye. He is making a point about the level of severity of the moral life
telling people not to steal covet or lust. IN CONTEXT, The Lord tells thousands
of people that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to inherit the His
Kingdom, the people abandon Him and He goes on to say to the ones who stayed
that those who do not eat His flesh and drink His blood will have no life in them,
then He tells the Pharisees that He is the Bread that came down from heaven,
then He institutes this at the Last Supper, then after His Resurrection, His
Apostles do not recognize Him until THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD.....then St Paul
Says that people are DYING from partaking of Communion in an unworthy manner,
then the Book of the Revelation refers to this this as the Supper of the Lamb
and calls it the GREAT AND UNITED SACRIFICE that will be offered day and night
from east to west until the return of the Lord...how do you read the Gospel of
St. John Chapter 6 and still say that St. John did not believe in the
Eucharist? here is another of your points that are false brother, the writings
of Ignatius say that St. John offered the Sacrifice of the Eucharist EVERYDAY
until his death did you read that? or you think Ignatius was lying?
O: please read my above messages
do you believe Christ eternally existed? as in like
do you believe He created the universe and He existed before becoming a human?
please read above I presented you with the Hebrew
Me: Of course I believe He eternally existed, He is
God. "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away. For we know in
part, and we prophesy in part. But when
that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done
away. When I was a child, I spake as a
child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man,
I put away childish things." (I Corinthians 13:8-11). God no longer speaks
through any way but His Word. He put what we needed for salvation there. Man,
I've presented you with why salvation is through faith. God's Word is our
authority.
O: Joe please stop quoting scripture out of context
and have nothing to do with our conversation. you have absolutely not in any
way presented an argument you have not even begun to present an argument for
any of your three hundred year old religion's erroneous teachings. You are SO
proud Joe, you didn't even know that the Greek term Logos refers to God's Mind
and action you thought it meant the bible. that is like square one of the whole
Christian faith Joe and not just for Orthodox and Catholics, man fundamentalist
Baptist scholars would laugh at you for saying that bro, my other Priest is
fluent in Greek straight Macedonian on both sides of his family, you gonna tell
him Logos mean bible? You keep saying
the bible is your authority but I show you the bible confirms the Eucharist and
you refuse to read and see for yourself you try to explain it away so no joe
the bible is NOT an authority that you obey
O: Salvation in through Theosis
O: Salvation is through Theosis....the Greek term
Logos or the Hebrew term Mehm'ra or the Arabic term Kah'ram are interchangeable
in historic Christianity and Judaism. The term has always meant this the Wisdom
and Action of God, or quite simply His Mind. This is why the bible says that
the Logos created the heavens, because God is eternally a Trinity, Father, Son
and Holy Spirit or you could say there is God, His Eternal Word (Logos) and His
Breath (Spirit, or Ruhk'ha in Arabic and Hebrew means Breath). Id ont suppose
you believe the bible to be part of the Holy Trinity?
O: Christ is the Eternal Logos (Mind) of God
Me: Logos is what John calls Christ in chapter one of
his gospel. It is translated "Word". Jesus was the incarnate Word of
God, people until the time of the Bible's completion were spoken to by God's
spoken and written Word, " logos". And now since God no longer orally
speaks, we learn through His written Word- "logos". Don't take my
word for things, study them impartially on your own. But don't take your
religion's word for it either. Take God's Word for it. http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/word/
O: Joe I dare you to tell someone who speaks Greek
that Logos is referring to the scripture. Bro I have given it to you in four
languages and you still wont allow yourself to learn a new word? you hold firm
in your pride? All Christians except false Chrisians like Jehova witness know
that Logos is referring to God the Word. You need to talk to your Baptist
minister, he has been to a Baptist seminary and he will explain to you that
Word (Logos) is referring to God the Word. You say God no longer speaks? the
bible says the Logos holds the universe together. you tell ME to study them
impartially? Really are you kidding me brother? I gave you tons of verses IN
CONTEXT you dismissed every single one!!! you only presented me with verses out
of context. where do you find this doctrine that God no longer speaks? the
Gospel says the Holy Spirit will guide the Church in all truth and righteousness. Christ says to the Apostles
"he who sees you sees Me", and "they who hear you hear Me".
Further, IN CONTEXT, right after the Lord institutes the Eucharist at the Last
Supper, He says "I AM with you always, even unto the end of time". Joe what does it solve if I say I am reading
the bible correctly and you say you are reading the bible correctly and we both
say we are biblical? this goes to back to context, Where can you provide me any
documentation that would show a continuing scripture interpretation that
corresponds with your own? why do all the of the 1900+ year old sources from
the MIDDLE EAST show that early Christians believed and practiced the same as
the Orthodox Christians do today? wouldn't you be being much more honest with
yourself about reality if you accepted that you practice a new form of
Christianity that developed later? why are you ashamed of who you are? the
truth is the Orthodox teaching makes you feel uncomfortable because you know we
are different from you. it angers you that all historic sources as well as all
modern day MIDDLE EASTERN Christians are Orthodox. It makes you question your
religion because its different so you lash out in anger and say fundamentalist
things about people and make inflammatory comments about people. your hate for
Rome is so obvious you dismiss the Orthodox without even giving it a second
thought when the Christians in Jerusalem to this very day. there has been a
Church over the place of the Lord's Resurrection for 1900 years it is a Greek
Orthodox Church, Joe. So the Lord's tomb is still a Greek Orthodox Church!!!.
If you were a real researcher you wouldn't just dismiss this you would want to
learn. but because it challenges your narrow minded fundamentalist world view
to even here the word Orthodox or Catholic, you don't even want to know about
the Church in Palestine you refuse to address it. Joe you can be a Baptist and
still admit that the Christians in the Holy Land have ALWAYS been Orthodox, and
you can learn from them without surrendering your denomination. but see the
problem is you are afraid if you allow yourself to admit that the first
Christians were Orthodox, then you would feel obligated to learn more, and you
are afraid that if you learn more than you will feel obligated to convert, and
that would be scary.
O: babe u read into things way too much
O: wow that wasn't to you lol
Me: Well I was going to say, I think we're both against
homosexuality. Haha. Context isn't really an opinion, but it appears we are
differing on it. It doesn't anger me that you believe differently, but I am
trying to help me see your side. I'm seeing yours, I'm just not agreeing with
it. Which is why we have discussions. You call my beliefs new, yet you are
forgetting that yours has not been around since the beginning either, as you
personally have told me you broke off the Catholic church. Though Baptists
trace their beliefs back to the first century church, even if we are strictly
speaking names, it appears we are on equal footing. As for Logos, you are
correct it refers to God the Word (Jesus Christ). That was due to the Word
becoming flesh. It refers to any words of God. I'm not honestly sure where
"the mind of God" came from. Are you lashing out at me because you
are not confident in what you are saying, or angry at me? I'm not sure how it
got to this point. I believe you took "God no longer orally speaks"
differently than intended. I Corinthians 13:8-11 says, "Charity never
faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is
come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I
spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I
became a man, I put away childish things." That which is perfect cannot be
referring to Jesus, since prophecies and tongues were still going on after He
left. It refers to the Bible. Does God speak? Oh yes He does, through nature,
through our consciences, through the Holy Spirit, and through believers in Him.
But He no longer gives new revelations and audibly speaks to man any longer,
because His Word (Peter calls it "a more sure word of prophecy") has
taken the place of that.
O: Joe I have never met anyone as arrogant about being
wrong. You ask where I get the mind of God thing? Hmmmm gee maybe from the fact
that that's what the Word means in Greek. Again I can arrange for you to talk
to someone who speaks Greek. And besides ancient Judaism always held this
belief. So you are absolutely off Joe and you look proud...now I know you are a
liar I NEVER said Orthodoxy broke from Rome....Rome broke from
Orthodoxy....history clearly shows first century Christianity was Orhodox ,
period. Just because you say something does not make it true you could say
there are green monkeys on the moon that doesn't make it true you say Baptists
derive from the first century but you can't provide any source for this claim.
No Joe as I have shown with the proof I presented you the first century church
was Orthodox.....joe the Lord's actual tomb is to this day a Greek Orthodox
Church....would you come into the Lords tomb and pray or would you sit with the
Pharisees?
O: read the writings of Philo and tell me Jews don't
believe Logos to be the mind of God? You are in complete denial
Me: Actually this (http://www.gardentomb.com/) is
Christ's tomb. Just because your tradition tells you something doesn't mean
it's true. Look at what the apostles taught in the Bible. Can you honestly show
me that their true teachings, written down in God's infallible Word, line up
with yours?
O: no liar, this is Christ's REAL tomb that has been
known as Christ's true tomb. "Garden tomb" was said to be the Lord's
tomb by Israelis to sell tours to retard protestants who don't read history
this it the Lord's true tomb
O: you always run to something else when you get
confronted lol no source supports your claim does it Joey? do you have a
learning disorder? i gave you over thirty verses in correct context you do
nothing but quote verses out of context. You are so arrogant and proud...why
don't Palestinians believe "garden tomb" is the tomb of the Lord why
have they always believed it to be the Sepulcher? again you are angered by the
fact that the Church in the Holy Land
has always been Greek or Syriac Orthodox....see you hide behind your
facebook if we were in person i wouldn't allow you to use lies and disinformation
the way you do i could sit you down and make you see the facts about Jerusalem
and the Greek language etc. with your own eyes. i'm going to find you on campus
where do you hang out?
you are done
using disinfo lies and calling it an argument i want to sit down in person
O: this is not written from an Orthodox perspective it
in non bias and deals with the issue of Holy Sepulcher vs garden tomb
O: it was a Baptist not an Israeli the Israelis who
sell torus to fundies. how funny you would try garden tomb, when garden tomb
was an anti Orthodox invention "discovered" in 1882. the Seplechure
has been being used for 2000 years. who is right Orthodox in Palestine for 2000
years or fundies for less than 150 years? im going with history....please read
the article
O: the Miracle of the Holy Fire happens at the Holy
Seplechure not the "garden tomb" please read the two articles i
presented
O: The Lord's True Sepulcher, the place of the
Resurrection, confirmed annually by the Miracle of the Holy Fire [photo of
building inside building with fire around it]
O: the one dude i presented you with isn't even
Orthodox but he objectively looks at both and shows that "garden
tomb" is an evangelical protestant invention of the 19th century, it was
"discovered" buy Charles Gordon, the owner of a British owned real
estate developing group operating in Palestine. the Church of the Holy
Sepulcher has been known as the spot of the Lord's Resurrection for 2000 years
and was spoken about by Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD and St. Justin Martyr in
the late 2nd century. Charles Gordon was an open Free Mason. The
"discovery" of "garden tomb" has Masonic symbolism laced
all through it. Just like a racist occidental supremacist you are so bigoted you
dismiss the 2000 year tradition of the Sepulcher, you probably think the
"dumb Arab" Native Palestinian Christians aren't capable of really
knowing where the Lord was buried, it could have only been discovered by smart,
brave European colonialists...again my friend the Miracle of the Holy Fire
testifies to the truth
O: here's how ill know why you dismiss the Sepulcher
and accept garden tomb,..........who is modern day Israel Joe is it the Church
or the Jews? who is the rightful inhabitants of the land of Palestine Joe?, is
it the Jews Exclusively? or is it the Palestinian Christians and Muslims as
well as the native Jews and Samaritans?
please read my comment and click on my links
Me: I'd be happy to sit down in person if I thought it
would be productive. But trying to dominate a conversation, making blanket and
baseless statements, saying you speak in context without providing proof, and
resorting to name-calling isn't very productive. I've said before, I don't care
what tradition says. Tradition won't get you to Heaven, trusting in the blood
of Jesus will. The Jews are the rightful heirs to the Holy Land, and I stand by
Israel. But they too follow traditions and a law that we are not under. If that
is where you want to put yourself, fine, but the Bible tells us it has everything
we need for salvation and that we can know that we have eternal life. Jesus
Christ is a much more solid rock than traditions that can be altered and
rearranged.
O: So joe says Jews should have the Holy Land and
Palestinians who descend from Jewish Christians in the Apostolic age should be
what joe deported? But Joe the Bible says the Church IS Israel. Lets sit down
im not going to call u names man
Me: I'm not afraid to take that, I just don't see it
getting very far. Palestinians have their area right now, but God promised more
area than Israel comprises to His people. What specific biblical support can
you offer for your beliefs on getting to Heaven?
O: But Joe the Bible says the Church is Israel. what
makes the Jews the "Chosen People" and Palestinian Christians who
descend from the same people, "not chosen"? Orthodox and the Western
churches (Catholic and Reform) differ profoundly on what Heaven and
"Hell" actually is. our focus on the divinity of Christ. the bible
says the Logos is an all consuming Fire, so when Christ raises up His creation
He will manifest His Uncreated Energy. we will experience this as incomparable
Light, or as incomparable Fire. If after the Lord's Fire burns away our
iniquities, something of us remains? than we shall reflect the Light Christ God
eternally, if after burning away the evil there is nothing left, than we will
be eternally consumed. we see Heaven as becoming an eternal partaker in God's
own essence not an eternal family reunion in the sky, and we see "Hell"
as eternally being consumed by the Fire that created you, not as some separate
place with temporal or created fires separate from God (which is impossible
since God is Omnipresent)....here are just a few verses that will give you an
idea
Matthew 25:31-46,
John 6:53-55
Hebrews 12:29,
2 Corinthians 5:9-10
Romans 2:5-6
Matthew 7:21-23
Revelation 20:12-13
1 Corinthians 11:27,
Matthew 25:15-30
Philippians 2;12-18,
James 2:14-26,
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
2 Peter 2:20-22
Hebrews 10:26-27
Romans 2:7
Revelation 2:7
Revelation
2:23-26
1 Peter 4:17-20
Revelation 22:12
O: a few more:
Matthew 25:31-46,
John 15:1-9
1 Corinthians 9:27
Philippians 3:7-14
1 Thessalonians 3:5
please read these verses impartially and also read
the above description of the difference between the way the West (Catholic and
Reform) understands Heaven, and the way the Orthodox understand Heaven
Me: That's an interesting belief. I'm going to be gone
most of this weekend, but I'll take a look at the verses when I get the time.
O: today is Lazarus Saturday in the Orthodox Church,
the day before Palm Sunday. Today we read from the Gospel the story of the Lord
raising up Lazarus
Happy Feast Day Brother and Blessed Palm Sunday as
well!!!!
O: you ever get a chance to read any of the verses?
Me: I'm sorry, I've been really busy. I'll do it right
now.
O: ok brother no hurry
Me: "Our God is a consuming fire" is
powerful, and is speaking of Him in the Old Testament when He literally did
that. I mentioned before how Jesus used touchable things for people to
understand the spiritual. Hence parables and "hard sayings" such as
having to eat His flesh. We can't just take them at face value. Jesus doesn't
actually have sheep He takes care of, He has children of His. I see how Matthew
25 can be thought of as indicating we have to do good things to inherit eternal
life. But Jesus says "by their fruit ye shall know them". Those who
are His children show it by how they live; us living well doesn't make us His
children. That's what James was saying, as he spoke to professing Christians.
We have to interpret scripture with scripture, and when so many times it is
mentioned that we have to call upon the Lord to forgive our sins, we have to be
careful how we see these passages. We labor to be accepted, but again, this was
spoken to Christians. That same chapter says "we walk by faith". If
we must walk with our eyes firmly fixed on Jesus, then our salvation shouldn't
come of ourselves. Paul explained in Romans, "Now we know that what things
soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth
may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by
the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the
law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law
is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the
righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all
them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption
that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through
faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his
righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth
in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:
but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:19-28). You yourself said you are
similar to the Jewish religion; even with differences, not being justified by
law-following and deeds but being justified by faith still applies. The White
Throne of Judgment is for the lost, there is a separate judgment for the saved.
Both will be rewarded for their works, but there is an important separation
there. This is not to understate the important of works; obviously God places a
great emphasis on obedience. But it is the sanctifying of the Holy Spirit
inside of a Christian that enables them to do that. It is not that that allows
us entrance into Heaven. I know you are probably a very moral person, just as
the Catholic friends I have are. But we are all sinful, therefore imperfect and
deserving of God's judgment. As Paul said, " As it is written, There is
none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none
that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together
become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their
tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose
mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not
known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:10-18). That
is describing all of us. It takes the same blood of Jesus to redeem us, and it
is only through Him. "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life; No man cometh
unto the Father BUT BY ME." I don't like to bear bad news, but good isn't
good enough. The good news is, it took a perfect sacrifice to reconcile us to
God, and He has already been provided. Faith is simple, and you have to take
that step.
O: my friend you are doing it again you are taking a
verse totally out of context to make it say what you want it to say....you say
later on in the chapter it says "walk by faith", but in context it
doesn't say that in a way as to prove your basic point. you say Judgment is
only for unbelievers? well then why does St Paul say he works out his salvation
with fear and trembling ? you quote
Romans and say it takes the Blood of Christ to redeem us but then you add your
tradition's theology to it and "say it had to take a perfect sacrifice to
reconcile us to God". Joe the Blood of Christ is the reason you and I will
be raised from the dead on the last day, but don't kid yourself into thinking
that just because you believe this you will be relieved of your duty to feed
the poor and clothe the naked and visit the imprisoned and burry the dead,
because we will be judged more harshly than those who do not know of these
great callings....you pretend to accept the verse I presented about God being a
Fire but you, im sorry, in your pride don't want to understand our theology
that the Logos of God is His Eternal Action and Wisdom, so you still refuse to
see that the scripture is saying that Christ is the Logos, and that the Logos
is the Light and Fire and Action and Wisdom of God. you say faith is simple and
that I need to take that step....Joe my whole life is my faith, how could you
say that to me when you do not even know me?
O: I just read all of the verses you presented....I
suspect you also have a typical western (English speaking) understanding of the
word "Grace" that differs profoundly from those reading in Greek.
O: define Grace for me Joe and ill tell you if we are
even close to a common understanding
Me: I said both will be judged, and said that doesn't
negate a Christian's duty. Our lives must be lived by faith, but it takes that
initial faith. As for Christ being a sacrifice: "For the law having a
shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never
with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the
comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?
because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of
sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every
year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take
away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt
offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I
come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for
sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the
law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first,
that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through
the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest
standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which
can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for
sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting
till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected
for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to
us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make
with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their
hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities
will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more
offering for sin." (Hebrews 10:1-18).
Me: Grace is giving us something we don't deserve;
mercy is not giving us something we do deserve.
O: you didn't answer me what is Grace? golly Joe you
take verses out of context AGAIN? Hebrews 10 is saying that the blood sacrifice
of animals is no more, the very same book of Hebrews speaks of the Church
offering unblemished sacrifice!!!!! interestingly, Jews even agree that when
their "messiah" comes, only the sacrifice of Bread and Wine will be
offered....so even the Midrash said this up until the third century!!!
Me: It clearly says Jesus was the once-and-for-all
sacrifice. "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say,
not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his
own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal
redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of
an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to
serve the living God?...For Christ is not entered into the holy places made
with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to
appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself
often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of
others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the
world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by
the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin
unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:11-14, 24-28). I'm not sure of the "umblemished
sacrifice". I defined grace in the second message.
O: Grace is the Uncreated Energy of God....His Light,
His Power, His Fire, His Splendor....the Light that the Apostles saw at the
Transfiguration is Grace...so every time you read something about Grace you are
interpreting it almost as if you think it is speaking of an emotion or a gift
as you say... but Grace is God's very Energy....so English speakers are again
enslaved to a FALSE theology because of bad translation
O: and your entire theology is based on this
"grace" that didn't even exist to Greek Speakers, to them Grace is
the Light and Fire of God that we encounter through Prayer and through the Holy
Mysteries (Sacraments)
I can see you now singing good ol amazing grace not
even knowing you are getting all teary eyed to some bad, northern European
theology
O: again Christ is once and for all sacrificed, so
this is the Sacrifice of the New Covenant that CHRIST tells us to keep until
His return, saying HE will be with us always!!! Joe PLEASE stop picking and
choosing what scripture you want to accept
Me: Where do you find this definition of grace? Even
the dictionary defines it "(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited
favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of
blessings." "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if
through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God, and the
gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto
many." (Romans 5:15). "By whom also we have access by faith into this
grace wherein we stand , and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans
5:2). "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." (Ephesians 2:8).
O: why do you just dismiss it when I tell you that
even rabbis who reject Christianity all together will admit that the Messianic
offering will be Bread and Wine? this shows that even they cannot not remove
Chirst's Holy Eucharist from the Scripture, why are you so proud buddy? we need
to meet man
Me: Does that mean you believe that Christ was
sacrificed for us? He did say, "as oft as ye do it, do in remembrance of
me." Keeping the Lord's Table does not equate to being redeemed by HIS
sacrifice.
Me: I didn't reject that, but responded broadly. Show
me where its at in the Bible and I'll look at its context. I like discussing
things in person, but you are still being a bit demeaning, and I want to know
you will talk about beliefs instead of dismissing it with personal attacks.
Otherwise there's no reason to talk.
O: yea but again you are only picking what you want
and ignoring the rest. He says this IS My Body, This IS My Blood of the New
Covenant, My Flesh is REAL food, My Blood is REAL drink, he who does not eat my
Flesh and Drink my Blood will have no life in them, then St Paul says some
people are dying from receiving him unworthily, then the Book of Revelation
says this will be offered until the Return of the Lord....the First Churches
were fashioned after the Jewish Temple, WITH ALTARS!! please bro don't let the
rigidity of Roman Catholic Scholasticism scare you away from truth and beauty
and mysticism and history of Orthodoxy...
O: im not trying to be demeaning im truly sorry
O: I would not attack you man I like you dude
O: besides its Holy Week
O: Please brother please watch all three videos in
order it will only take about 20 minutes. I would really appreciate it if you
did and i think it would help our conversation
Me: It's a fascinating history. Orthodox and Catholic
churches both claim that they were the original church and the other split from
them. History seems to be clear on that. When we are not certain of this, we
have to look back to the Bible God gave us rather than what a church itself
claims as tradition. "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk
not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with
unwashen hands? 6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of
you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but
their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye
hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such
like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment
of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said, Honour thy
father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the
death: 11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban,
that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall
be free. 12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have
delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:5-13). Peter himself
said, "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the
end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus
Christ; 14 as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the
former lusts in your ignorance: 15 but as he which hath called you is holy, so
be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 because it is written, Be ye holy;
for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons
judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in
fear: 18 forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible
things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition
from your fathers; 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
without blemish and without spot: 20 who verily was foreordained before the
foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 who
by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;
that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls
in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,
see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 being born again,
not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth
and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as
the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 but the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by
the gospel is preached unto you." (I Peter 1:13-25). Jesus taught who His
sheep are: "This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not
what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them
again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that
ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in
and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to
kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might
have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth
his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd,
whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and
fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling
fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the
good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father
knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the
sheep." (John 10:6-16). Only those who enter in through Jesus can be
saved. "and he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours
only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (I John 2:2). A
propitiation is a stand-in sacrifice. He stood in because we couldn't. Isaiah
said, "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness,
those that remember thee in thy ways:
behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned:
in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing,
and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;
and we all do fade as a leaf;
and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us
away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name,
that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee:
for thou hast hid thy face from us,
and hast consumed us, because of our
iniquities." (Isaiah 64:5-8). Our RIGHTEOUSNESSES, the very best we can
offer God, is filthy rags to Him. God had to turn His back on Jesus because of
our sin. Romans says that there is none righteous. Jesus came in vain if we can
do anything of our own to get to Heaven.
O: Joe i love you brother please listen bro because
now we are really seing how much different we understand our Lord Jesus
Christ...God had to turn His back on Jesus? Jesus is God!!!!!! He is God's
Mind!!!
You are reflecting what is called
"substitutionary atonement theory" the idea that the crucifixion was
to appease the wrath due to man by a just God, and that only the blood of the
innocent Christ could satisfy God's wrath towards mankind....this is more than
bad scripture reading, this is a wicked heresy to the Orthodox. Joe Jesus
Christ is the creator of the universe, Christ is the One who spoke to Moses
from the burning bush.....death entered the human race through our choosing to
cut ourselves off from the eternal Life which is God....and again DEATH is the
philosophical dilemma of Judaism not God's "wrath" towards our
sins.....So the Eternal creator sees that His creation is fallen, and in the
providence of His LOGOS, He decided from all eternity that He would become man,
and raise from the dead...it is His Resurrection that saves us, not the
brutality of His Death, the entire universe will be resurrected one day because
of the Resurrection of Christ our God, you say that if salvation is a process
Christ came in vein?....Joe Christ has redeemed the entire universe, not just
mankind. please brother, lay aside your allegiance to the familiar and realize
that there is type of Christianity that teaches the divinity of Christ much
more profoundly than where you go to church now. A Church that reads the
Scripture in linguistic as well as cultural context.
Atonement
theory developed not even a thousand years ago, you resent Rome so much but you
carry so much Roman baggage you aren't even aware of...yea Joe Rome claims to
be the original Church, but cannot provide proof of this, it can be proven that
the early Church was Orthodox, not Roman Catholic and NOT Reformer type...but
all the Proof aside, you should at least be somewhat illumined by the fact that
the ancient Church had a much more divine Christology than modern churches in
the west
Me: You explained substitutionary atonement fairly
well. You are correct that it is the resurrection that saves us; Jesus just
dying meant nothing unless He rose again like He said. From the cross He cried,
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Because God cannot be in
the presence of sin, He had to forsake His Son on the cross. That's because Jesus
took the sin of the world upon Him to take God's wrath for mankind. "For
when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man
some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now
justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if,
when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much
more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but
we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received
the atonement." (Romans 5:6-11). That's just one passage that mentions Jesus
taking the wrath of God for all who place their trust in Him. That is the very
definition of propitiation. That passage also mentions that you are God's
enemy. Not due to what you say, but because you are a sinner apart from His
grace. "5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That
the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness
which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall
ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7Or, Who shall
descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But
what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that
is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy
mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the
scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there
is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is
rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:5-13). That's what it takes; it is so
much simpler than anything sinful humanity can come up with.
Me: "4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried
our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are
healed....10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he
shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his
knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their
iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the
great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured
out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he
bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
(Isaiah 53:4-5,10-12)
O: God cannot be in the presence of sin? God is
OMNIPRESENT there bud!!! meaning God is everywhere! Christ washed the feet of
sinners, He saved the harlot and the tax collector...."My God My God, why
have you forsaken me" is the Lord quoting Psalm 22 to show it to be about
Him.....again your proof text method falls short...we both agree that Christ
died for us, but we disagree that it was because of the "wrath" of
God that had to be appeased...God loves mankind He has no wrath for man, as we
say in the Orthodox Church, He is the Great Lover of Mankind, the bridegroom of
the human race. ....Again you refuse to see that your understanding of Christ
shows Him to have a separate consciousness from God the Father, and that the
Orthodox reject this and always have....the Greek speaking, Greek READING,
Greek Orthodox Church has always proclaimed that Christ is one Divine Person,
with two distinct natures and wills (Divine and human) therefore the verses
that show the Lord in prayer are to reveal the mystery of His dual natures and
wills within one His Divine Person...for example "Not My will be done but
Yours" CANNOT be taken as a conversation between the eternal Son and the
Father, because the would make two wills in God and that would be object
polytheism....instead, the GREEK SPEAKING, GREEK READING Church of antiquity
always proclaimed this as a revelation of the two wills in the One
God-man......You can quote all the verses you want, but if you are honest with
yourself, you will admit that our Christology is vastly different from yours,
and that ours teaches a much more Divine Christ than does your own......instead
of holding firm in your pride, allow yourself to appreciate that the ancient
Church put more emphasis on the divinity of Christ than your own......was it
God the Father or God the Word who spoke to Moses from the Fire? answer that
and we'll see what you really believe.....bro all games aside why don't you
come to one of our services this Holy weekend?
O: the Logos IS the Consciousness of the Father
Me: You think Jesus talked to Himself? That is the
nature of the Trinity. It is one God but three distinct persons. Hence why
Jesus said He came to do the will of His Father. Jesus was compassionate
towards sinners; He came to save them. God expelled Adam and Eve after the
fall; sin separates us from God, but Jesus can reconcile us to Him. How can one
forsake himself?
In the case of Moses and the burning bush, it says
the Angel of the LORD spoke to him. The Angel of the LORD is a Christophony,
Jesus preincarnate Who appears in the Old Testament.
I am home this weekend, and attend a church down
there.
O: The Will of the Father, as well as the thought,
wisdom, power, radiance, action, and Mind of Father, is the second Person of
the Trinity....no He isn't "talking to Himself" these verses are
teaching Trinitarian Theology when read closely and, as always, in context.
..actually in Greek, it says the Word of the Lord spoke to Moses. and yes angel of great council is a Jewish
reference to the Logos
O: Three distinct Person, with One Will, One Power,
One Nature....God the Word, meaning the Wisdom and Power and Mind and Will of
God from all eternity, became fully human...meaning He also has a human will
and a human soul consisting...so in the One Divine Person of Christ, there is
the Divine Will which IS the Will of the Father, and the human will this was
all discussed in the 6th Ecumenical Council of Second Constantinople....again
"why have thou forsaken me" is a reference to Psalm 22, Christ
repeatedly tells of His impending Crucifixion in the Gospels, and He says
"I lay My Life down willingly, nobody takes it from Me, and I will Rise by
My Power which I had with the Father from all eternity"...so how could He
have been Forsaken by His Father when He even says He lays His life down
willingly, so it is a reference to the 22nd Psalm, and to Jewish ears who read
the Psalms daily, it made since (hence Orthodox theology)...do you still refuse
to accept that the Logos is the Wisdom, Thought, Power, Will and Mind of God? I
really don't see how you still could deny this...why don't you want a more
divine Christology? the first time i heard Orthodox theology explained i about
fell out of my chair, come on bro lay aside your pride
Me: Christ is divine; He is God. He quotes Psalm 22,
but even then it referred to God the Father. God the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. Where do you see your version of the Trinity in the Bible?
O: [It was
Easter] Christ is Risen!!! Indeed He
is Risen!!!!......Joe my brother if you would just accept the meaning of the
Greek term Logos, you would see that every single book in the Bible teaches
Orthodox Trinitarian Theology
Genesis to Revelation
Me: Apart from the Orthodox I'm not sure who else has
altered its meaning. You have to accept Christ's death, burial, and
resurrection only to atone for your sins, not any duties you have to fulfill.
The entire Bible points to the person of Christ, from the need for Him in
Genesis to His second coming in Revelation. Everything points to Him because He
is the only way. His fulfillment of conquering death so that we can have life
is why we celebrate Resurrection Sunday. How many times does Christ have to die
to pay for sin? He died once, and that was sufficient for HIM to take away our
sins, not us to work for it. Happy Easter man!
O: Joe you say we altered it, but our theology is
compatible with Jewish theology yours is not so really? We altered? Joe we are
the only Church that still reads from the Greek...why wont you humble yourself
and accept that our Church is unchanged? You don't speak Greek but your gonna
tell Greek speakers what a Greek word means?
Me: You are correct, I don't read Greek, but any person
can look up a word of it. Paul reiterates again and again how the Jewish
religion is wrong; do you then compare yourself to them?
I earlier posed the verses on the order of
salvation-baptism and a number of verses about faith coming only through Jesus
Christ. Do you have an answer for them?
O: No Joe you did not you ripped verses out of context
and tell yourself this is what they say....bro I am sure you are nice guy but
why do you use the classic Alinsky method of divergence?....Paul says that the
Law is no longer upon us in the New Covenant, Paul isn't saying Jews are wrong
about the Logos....so all Christians and Jews for four thousand years held that
the Logos is the Wisdom and Power of God who created the heavens, but they were
all wrong and you are right? Why do you hold in your pride?
O: you don't realize how insecure you look....it is a
fact that Logos means the Wisdom/Power/Action of God, I can quote anyone famous
Christian or Jewish thinker from antiquity to prove this is the meaning of the Word, but in order
for you to accept that you would have to challenge yourself to thought and
contemplation and you would have to admit that you don't know it all...and that
would be scary....please brother, you are making yourself look like a dear in
headlights, please just accept the true meaning of Logos and be illumined by
the Logos through contemplation of Him
Me: The majority of times in the Bible,
"logos" is translated "sayings" or "word". The
rest of the times, to my knowledge, it is translated something similar to word
or sayings. Show me when it is ever translated wisdom/power/action of God.
O: Joe.....the fact is that the Greek text the
original text the word is Logos.....joe languages don't always translate word
for word the old saying is that it takes a paragraph of English to explain the
meaning of one Greek word....the Bible says God spoke and created the universe,
the Bible says the Word of God (Logos Theu) spoke to the Prophets, so in
English, which lacks the nuance of the Greek language, Word with a capital W is
a good usage...remember how I showed you that the Hebrew words for Action and
Wisdom were both translated to Logos in the Septuagint, the old testament used
by Christ and His holy Apostles? Please bro be illuminated it will change you
forever if you humble your preconcieved notions if Christ and delve deeper
O: Joe.....the fact is that the Greek text the
original text the word is Logos.....joe languages don't always translate word
for word the old saying is that it takes a paragraph of English to explain the
meaning of one Greek word....the Bible says God spoke and created the universe,
the Bible says the Word of God (Logos Theu) spoke to the Prophets, so in
English, which lacks the nuance of the Greek language, Word with a capital W is
a good usage...remember how I showed you that the Hebrew words for Action and
Wisdom were both translated to Logos in the Septuagint, the old testament used
by Christ and His holy Apostles? Please bro be illuminated it will change you
forever if you humble your preconcieved notions if Christ and delve deeper
Me: We seem to be going in circles now. I'll reiterate
what I've been saying and we can call it a day, unless you have anything
additional to add or ask. We are humans are born into a sin nature. God cannot
be in the presence of sin, but still wanted fellowship with those He created in
His image. So from the very first sin, God promised a permanent sacrifice so
that we would not have to pay for our sin. James says he who is guilty on one
point of the law is guilty of the whole law. The only way we can pay for our sin
is eternity in the Lake of Fire. But Jesus died, took our sin upon Him, and
paid for our sin. It is ONLY through Him that imperfect man can be saved. Works
are necessary and important, but they are the result of salvation, not the
cause of it. I'll be praying for you man. If you see me around don't hesitate
to say hello.
O: Joe but your nice message here is substitutionary
atonement theory.....which is not the religion of the original Christians and
is not the religion of there descendants, why do you refuse to atleast see,
even if you dont change your belief why wont you at least investigate the faith
of the early Church for yourself? i dont mean this to be rude i am serious, but
are you afraid that if you learn what we believe it will make you change your
belief? because i know what you believe its called substitutionary atonement
theory.,,,,,,the true faith is that God the Word created the universe and from
all eternity loved mankind more than any other creature, and He gave mankind
free will because of His love for man kind, and in a mystical way beyond our comprehension, the
sin of man that resulted in the death of man, and the death of all living
things throughout all the heavens, and because of His love for makind and in
His love for the cosmos (universe) which He created, He became man on this
little planet, and He allowed Himself to be crucified so that He could trample
down death by His mighty Resurrection, and He freed mankind from death and
freed the whole universe and all of creation from death by slaying death, He
allowed Himself to be mocked so that death could be mocked, He allowed Himself
to be slapped so that death could be slapped, He allowed Himself to spit on so
that death could be spit on, it is Christ is the Mind of God, why dont you want
to at least hear me out? ...Joe i want
you to let me say my closing statement, please do not take offense.....but you
are against ( and for good reason) the teaching of Rome that one man is
infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture and declare true
Christian doctrine, but you don't even see that you have become your own
infallible interpreter of Christian doctrine.....for the Orthodox, the Holy
Spirit alone is infallible, so what has always been believed in every age and
is unchanged from the 1st century is the infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit,
the faith that has always been, not the interpretation of someone in the 1600's
or the 21st century, i want to know where to find you so we can get some coffee
man where do you hang out? please watch this four minute sermon please its
about Pascha (Easter)
O: please read my above please please
please.....please read my obove message and watch this sermon its only 4
minutes
Me: Jesus took our sin and our place. The apostles
themselves even said this, besides Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 53. "And he
is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins
of the whole world." (I John 2:2). "Herein is love, not that we loved
God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our
sins." (I John 4:10). "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation
through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of
sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Romans 3:25 [Paul]).
As I said before, that is the very definition of "propitiation".
"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
(Romans 4:25). "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (II Corinthians
4:21 [Paul]). "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes
ye were healed." (I Peter 2:24). If you are very knowledgeable about
Greek, you should know the word "tetelestai". That is the word Jesus
used when He cried, "It is finished." It is a legal term used when a
debt was paid in full. That debt is ours; He paid it on the cross. I would
change my beliefs if I had or would ever find evidence against them, but this
is how the Bible tells it, the apostles included.
O: but Joe you are just quoting verses that say
something we both hold in common and then adding substitutionary atonement
theory, assuming that is what it means without the context.....in context what
it means that He took our sins is, and was brused for our iniquities is that
sin is the reason death entered the cosmos, so Christ our God the Word of God
was brused for our iniquities He took on death.... He didn't pay our
"debt" to the Father, we didn't owe a "debt" to the Father,
other than death of course, so God destroyed death....He didn't pay a "debt"
to the Father, He is the Mind of the Father in His Divine Nature.....you think
God was so angry with our sins and only the blood of His Son could satisfy His
wrath..this is a heresy on many levels....Christ is the eternal Word of God who
created the Heavens.......Augustine, Anslem, Aquinas, and Calvin, these are the
death of the west....
O: you should tell me where we can meet do you go to
the BCM?
Me: I agree up unto the point of no debt. Sin creates
that debt. The Bible states that the wrath of God is revealed against all
unrighteousness. Wrath is a very real quality of God. Sin separates from Him,
and only Christ can reconcile us.
Me: I'll be at the BCM this Thursday night; we have
something called TNL at 8 p.m. if you'd like to come. Otherwise I'll be done
around 9:30 or so. Or we could meet Friday in the early afternoon there.
O: and in the final judgment you quoted it says the
Lake of Fire eternally flows from the Judgment seat bro!!! meaning eternally
flows from Christ !!!!!! come on bro!!!!!! yea bro im looking forward to it you
like coffee?
Me: Hebrews 12:29 doesn't speak to God's wrath. And
that speaks of a quality of God the Hebrew people were familiar with. That one
verse is not one that people can frame a faith around by saying God has an
eternal fire. God's eternal fire is Hell that He created for Satan and his
demons, and where all who don't know Him personally go after death. The
judgment seat is not Christ. I'm not exactly sure where that's from. The Bible
says "whosever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the
Lake of Fire."
Me: Coffee is part of my bloodstream.
O: what are you talking about Joe it says clear as day
our God is a consuming fire
Me: The section of Hebrews that includes the story of
Moses and the people meeting God: "For ye are not come unto the mount that
might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness,
and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of
words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken
to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was
commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or
thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I
exceedingly fear and quake:)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the
city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company
of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the
firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the
spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if
they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we
escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath
promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the
removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that
those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be
moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence
and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire."
Me: Even this speaks to the fear we are to have of God.
He is a consuming fire, but not whatever extra one would like to add on.
O: there are no created fires in the after life.....God
is a consuming fire....."Heaven and Hell" are two different
experiences of the same reality
Me: I guess if you want to put it that way. But vastly
different experiences.
O: what are you saying Joe??? how dare you say we
"add on"!!!! Christians and Jews since immemorial have taught that
God is an eternal Light and Fire....so thousands of years of mystics who live
out in the desert and do nothing but pray and study the scriptures in the
original language it was written in are "adding on" but you here in a
secular world, your not adding on with your atonement theory and created fire
heresy? that's crazy man stop being proud my friend!!! i feel like our
conversations will be so much better once we are in person you tend to dance a
lot over the face book, we are going to get to the nitty gritty of good old
reality when we meet up man..........
O: i like you a lot dude
i like coffee too we should hit up like chipotle
maybe though
Me: I'm not sure what I've danced around. God is
eternal light, in fact, He will be the light of Heaven. But do you deny His
wrath? Do you deny Christ's sacrifice for your sins? I've been called prideful
many times by you, but I would say what is prideful is making Christ's
sacrifice of no effect by thinking one can make it to Heaven on their own
works. I want you to be real with me, as I am with you. Your beliefs are
clouding your compassion, and no one gets anywhere with simply shouting
insults. I'm laying out what God's Word says; if you see it a different way we
can discuss it, but the beliefs, not throwing insults. On campus is better for
me. I'd like to know your thoughts on seemingly obvious verses.
O: who insulted you? i said you dance a lot meaning
you move back and forth instead of, as you suggested, objectively discussing our
differing interpretation.....
Me: When have I moved back and forth?
O: watch this 1 minute video from 2 am on Pascha right
before we proclaim the Resurrection
Me: You didn't answer my question.
O: i just saw it
well i told you i disagree that hell is created fire
you didn't address it....i gave you verses that showed that Christ was truly
speaking of His Flesh and Blood you dismissed those....i showed you salvation
is a process you dismissed those......
on an on because you are your own pope, that is not
an insult but you are infallible in your own mind
your interpretation is sovereign
i reject the pope joe, lets reject all the mini
popes too
i really reject this new pope....ugh..not to change
the subject
Me: A biblical interpretation is correct. I didn't come
to these convictions in a vacuum. Dismissing what you say is not flip-flopping.
I don't address things unless I know I'm supposed to. Hell is a created fire in
the sense that it has not always existed, because rebellion against God didn't
always exist, until Satan rebelled. You dog the pope, but how have you come to
your conclusions? Through the Orthodox church? Does that make you any better?
O: Joe you dont even know the history of the Orthodox
Church....the Orthodox Church is unchanged, i get my interpretation from the
Apostles.......the Orthodox Church doesn't believe in an infallible man, we
believe in an infallible God who promised to never leave His Church, so our
Church can be shown to use the same liturgy the same bible in the same language
the same prayers etc etc etc .....we are unchanged....and when heretics
attacked the Church the Church held Ecumenical Councils where they came to a
Collegial decision via council in the presence of the Holy Spirit, the first of
such councils is recorded in thActs of the Apostles........our Church had
literally been unchanged and in Jerusalem for 2000 years
O: Orthodoxy has literally been in Jerusalem and
unchanged since the first Council recorded in Acts.....this is how we know our
interpretation is pure, because it is not our own, it is that of the Holy
Apostles
if you came to my Church one time you would know it
is the truth
our church is the
Church of Pentecost
come and see and you will know
O: this is my retired Bishop, one of the holiest men i
know....please watch
O: if any interpretation is right than what about
jehova witnesses?
what about Mormons?
so any interpretation is right but the 2000 year old
one from Palestine?
O: this video is just a reading of our councils.....you
listen to our councils then say what you agree with or disagree
with...............
the video i sent has several videos in the one video
its our councils listen to them so you know what we teach
Me: The first council states that you believe in God,
God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The way you put it earlier made me think you
believe that there aren't three distinct persons in one. Though put a bit
oddly, the councils at the beginning are fairly accurate, until you get to
"one holy Catholic and apostolic church". If you've always been, why
did you used to be the Catholic church and had to separate?
Me: I don't have the time to get into the later ones.
You place great emphasis on the deity, unchanging nature, and work of Christ.
We do too. The difference is that we take His work in his death, burial, and
resurrection to be enough. We don't add our own deeds to it.
Me: We also don't place emphasis on councils or an
overall church teaching. As an Independent Baptist, each church is distinct
from the rest, yet all one body in Christ from His salvation. If Jesus never
changes, as your church teaches and Hebrews 13:10 confirms, why have traditions
changed over time? Jesus, the Word in the flesh, and the Word God gave us in
writing, does not change. I serve an unchanging God; people change, their
traditions change, but Jesus doesn't change, and hence what is necessary for
salvation does not change.
Me: It's not as important in the long-run, but Mary was
not always a virgin. She certainly was at Christ's birth, but she had other
children with Joseph afterwards.
Me: I actually did end up listening to them all.
"...Concurring most fitly in Him for the salvation of the human
race." If Christ is for the salvation of the human race, then believe in
Him and Him alone for that salvation!
O: Joe the Orthodox Church is the true Catholic Church
you seem to not even know what catholic meant before the RC took over the
word...it means universal and the term was used because the Church spread out
amongst different races of people from different nations...so the term catholic
in the councils means the universal church, not confined to one race or
ethnicity....so you don't even know the usage of the word catholic to say
weather or not you agree with it
.....how could you watch the councils then say the western churches
didn't change Christianity??? i am still wanting to meet up with you for coffee
asap.......you say "traditions change" to justify yourself in your
own mind....but joe our tradition has not changed, how do you so easily dismiss
this reality???No Joe actually if you understood Greek you would know that the
Virgin Mary never had any other children, and in fact she had been consecrated
to life life virginity at the age of four years old....she was betrothed to the
aged widower and carpenter Joseph, who at the time of the betrothal already had
a seven year old son named Yacob (James) who was step brother of the Lord and
first Bishop of Jerusalem,,, but you can t read Greek and you haven't
investigated all to the first century documentary evidence for the ever
virginity of the Virgin Mary, and you haven't studied the Essene Jews, if you
had you would understand the truth about the virgin Mary
O: Joe the Orthodox Church is the true Catholic Church
you seem to not even know what catholic meant before the RC took over the
word...it means universal and the term was used because the Church spread out
amongst different races of people from different nations...so the term catholic
in the councils means the universal church, not confined to one race or
ethnicity....so you don't even know the usage of the word catholic to say
weather or not you agree with it
.....how could you watch the councils then say the western churches
didn't change Christianity??? i am still wanting to meet up with you for coffee
asap.......you say "traditions change" to justify yourself in your
own mind....but joe our tradition has not changed, how do you so easily dismiss
this reality???No Joe actually if you understood Greek you would know that the
Virgin Mary never had any other children, and in fact she had been consecrated
to life life virginity at the age of four years old....she was betrothed to the
aged widower and carpenter Joseph, who at the time of the betrothal already had
a seven year old son named Yacob (James) who was step brother of the Lord and
first Bishop of Jerusalem,,, but you can t read Greek and you haven't
investigated all to the first century documentary evidence for the ever
virginity of the Virgin Mary, and you haven't studied the Essene Jews, if you
had you would understand the truth about the virgin Mary
O: all the Apostolic writings confirm this from the
Didache to Igantius to the proto-Gospel of St James, they all confirm that she
is ever virgin, who is right the men who knew her and cared for her after the
Lord's Ascension, or you Joe??? i can send you tons of bible verses that
demonstrate this as well, though i grow weary of the proof text method and
would like to meet for coffee
O: you say you serve an unchanged God yet your
understanding of God vastly differs from the Apostles, so you serve a different
God than the men who wrote the bible
O: you claim to serve an unchanged God, yet you refuse
to know how the ancient Church understood God, you claim you read the councils
but still wont accept the true usage of Logos??? No Joe you serve a
"God" who has been changed over and over and over and over for over a
millennia ...
O: when can we meet??
does it anger you that your "god" was
created by Augustine, Anslem and Calvin?
we need to meet man [He didn’t show up to the several times I offered.]
O: the didache say the Apostles fasted every Wednesday
and Friday, why don't you? the bible says the ancient Church anointed with oil
after baptism why don't you? the bible says the Apostles baptized the whole
house hold (including infants) why don't you? The Lord says eat my flesh and
drink my blood and do it over and over until I Return...why don't you joe? the
bible says to pray 7 times a day why don't you? the bible says to face east
when you pray why don't you? the bible says the early church had bishops why
don't you? on and on and on.......i think you really get under my skin because
you are so proud and yet you follow so little of what the bible says are signs
of the Apostolic faith, and you tell me to "believe" like i don't
believe??? again my whole life revolves around my Lord, God and Savior Jesus
Christ, maybe it is you who needs to believe!!!!
O: please read all of my recent messages....i really
want to meet up man or atleast exchange numbers....when can we get coffee
O: and man you speak about the Holy Councils like you
are a film critic or something, and you say your church doesn't care much about
councils only the Bible.....in you blissful ignorance you don't even realize
the oxymoron you have just professed, because the canon of scripture that you
call the Bible wasn't was decided upon and infallibly canonized until the
fourth century at the 2nd Ecumenical Counci of first Constantinople!!!! joe
when can we meet? [As previously said…]
Me: "Then came to him his mother and his brethren,
and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him by certain which
said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he
answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the
word of God, and do it." (Luke 8:19-21). Mary had multiple children, where
you get your story I am uncertain. Both James and Jude were Mary's children,
and half-brothers of Jesus. James said nothing of that sort. It was John, per
Jesus' command from the cross, that took care of Mary after His death. I follow
the scripture that some of the apostles wrote; I'd like to hear how they differ
from what I believe when their writings, inspired by God, confirm it.
"Bishops" are pastors today. Show me where any of this is in the
Bible. To dismiss what the Bible says in favor of what a church council says is
a dangerous thing. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast
learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And
that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make
thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture
is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works." (II Timothy 3:13-17). How are we
furnished unto all good works? The Bible. Not tradition or what a group of
people want to say.
O: dude again you are quoting the bible 100 % out of
context....you tell a filthy slanderous lie when you say St James never said
Theotokos was ever Virgin....the Bible says she is ever virgin 37 times.... and
St James wrote an entire Gospel about this called the proto-egangeliun, all the
though the council decided not to include it in the canon, it was given as the
guide for liturgical feasts and history of Church, it is dated to 70AD.....my
friend you are so wrong that its embarrassing....you are such a character Joe,
like always you quote a verse that has nothing to do with what you are talking
about,.......lets follow logic Joe, you accept the New Testament, why do you
only view those books as the New Testament who decides which 1st century
apostolic writings are included in the Canon?
O: again if you understood Greek you would know that
the Greek term used doesn't mean brethren as in sharing the same parent, there
is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT Greek word for that, but since you reject context and
language and history, i guess you are free to imagine whatever false reality
you wish !!!!! the reality is that the Christians in Jerusalem celebrated her
consecration to virginity and presentation in the Temple on Nov 30 almost 400
years before the Books of the New Testament were decided upon....you never
answered me by the way
O: Joe do you call the Virgin Mary the Mother of
God???
how do you decide what books are scripture?
why don't you fast?
why don't you face east when praying?
why don't you pray 7x a day?
why don't you anoint newly Baptized with Chrism oil
as is stated in the Bible?
why don't you chant the scripture when the bible
says that "the human voice is the harp of the Holy Spirit" and says
to "chant a melody to the Lord daily"?
why don't you have liturgical cycles and seasons
????
why don't you have monasticism when the Lord Himself
was born into a Monastic Jewish tradition?
O: let me guess...your answer to all will
be....."that stuff's not necessary to get to heaven".....Joe it is
about a lot more than that the Lord Jesus Christ gave us not just a religion
but a way of life, an organic recreation; all of things were given by the
Apostles yet you reject them all??? again, after you read the above, how do you
decide which books are New Testament and which are not
O: ????? [Ah, there’s the missing punctuation.]
O: why have you done away with so much of the biblical
faith??? why doesn't your religion resemble the faith of the
Apostles....interesting to me that when i challenge your interpretation of
Scripture you reference more of your interpretation of scripture as defense for
your interpretation....this is just out right silly
O: why have you done away with so much of the biblical
faith??? why doesn't your religion resemble the faith of the
Apostles....interesting to me that when i challenge your interpretation of
Scripture you reference more of your interpretation of scripture as defense for
your interpretation....this is just out right silly
O: please read all my recent messages and answer my
questions, starting with, How do you decide which books are considered New
Testament and which are not??? the canon of the New Testament was decided at
the Council of 1st Constantinople, how did you get your New Testament canon if
not for the Orthodox Church???
O: like how do you decide which 1st century Christian
writings are Scripture and which are not? Your New Testament had to come from
somewhere....who decided your New Testament canon???
O: and as always when can we meet??? […Well, you
know.]
O: no answer ??
Me: When one sends 19 straight messages, it's difficult
for another to respond in a timely manner. I honestly don't know where you've
gotten half that stuff. You've added extra books to the Bible and still go
outside of it to determine what you must do. While none of that is necessary
for salvation, Jesus certainly died so that we could have new life in Him; it
just doesn't include most of what you've said.
Me: We've went round and round on this stuff. You're
not listening to me, and I'm not buying what you're saying. I'm really not sure
what there is still to discuss.
O: where do you get your new testament?
who decided on those specific 1st century writings
when there are a plethora of 1st century writings to choose from?
O: just admit it you got your NT canon from the
Orthodox Church....you reject us you want to be different, fine,.....but just
admit the NT was canonized at the 2nd ecumenical council [I suppose that’s why
the two are different.]
O: I am truly disappointed Joe, you are attaching to
yourself the ultimate stereotype attributed to Evangelicals; had I been, for
example, a younger Roman Catholic, or perhaps an Orthodox immigrant who didn't
know English too well, you would have been more than happy to keep our
conversation going perpetually, perceiving yourself to be "winning".
But the minute you are presented with a question for which you have no answer
you suddenly "don't see where this is going" and I'm just "not
listening". What the heck Joe I thought you were an Evangelist, don't you
want me to be "saved" like you???....despite our differences I think
you are a cool dude I asked you several times to meet for coffee, and not just
to debate but to see where we agree to form a deeper understanding....you
suddenly don't even want to talk about it all now??? that's kind of unloving
and uncharitable on your part wouldn't you say?? you say you don't know what
there is left to discuss??? how about answering my simple question.....how does
your church decide which first century Christian writings constitutes the New
Testament?
O: they could publish a book from our conversation so
far and now you wont respond?? I really don't see why you wont answer me you
seem to be able to spin anything, why cant you spin this one??? admit you got
your NT from the 2nd Ecumenical Council all Protestant scholars accept this
fact......you are constantly saying something isn't needed for salvation yet
not once have I said anything about your salvation....why don't you fast Joe?
you say its not pertinent to salvation? so what? the Lord says to Fast
Me: Just because my response isn't immediate doesn't
mean it won't happen. You seem to be placing your faith in a church. God
decided the canon of scripture, as He inspired those books. You can believe
that you've "won" this "argument" if you want to because I
have short delays in responses (it's finals time), I really don't care. I don't
need the gratification of a stranger telling me I'm right.
O: I put my faith in Christ, and Christ says that the
Church IS His Body, so you cannot disconnect the two. You say "God decided
the canon of Scripture"....so are you saying that God was working through
the Bishops at the 2nd Ecumenical Councils......because it is just a fact that
the Council Canonized the scripture.......I don't want to "win" Joe,
that's not what this is about.......why don't you fast?
Me: I do fast, just not at some scheduled time. When I
need extra focus on prayer.
Be careful what you call facts.
The church (we clearly disagree on this definition,
however) is Christ's body; that does not give it ultimate authority. God's
speaking through His Word does. You cannot have faith in Christ unless you will
put faith in Him alone. I told you what the Bible says, it's your choice to do
what you will with it.
O: Joe my number is [Gives his number]....you told me what you think the bible
says........call me lets discuss this
So I don't have faith on Christ Joe??? really lol
that is comical
Me: It's nearly 12:30. I'm sure you see that as faith
in Christ, and it is noble that you try, but the Bible says there is no other
name under Heaven whereby we must be saved. It is only Christ's sacrifice and
resurrection that can give you salvation.
O: you say "be careful what I call
facts"...joe it will take you like 2 minutes of research to see that the
2nd Ecumenical Council canonized the NT
O: Joe you say.............."im sure you see that
as faith in Christ, and it is noble that you try, but the Bible says there is
no other name under Heaven whereby we must be saved. It is only Christ's
sacrifice and resurrection that can give you salvation"............what
other name do I hope to be saved by???.........I have said a million times that
I believe it is the death and Resurrection of Christ which is the reason why I
will be raised from the dead and the very reason and cause of salvation so why
would you say that to me as if I don't believe that???
O: are you afraid to follow through the logic???
everybody including protestant scholars will admit that the first time there
was an officially canonized was the 2nd Ecumenical Council......are you afraid
that accepting this will force you to see what else the men who canonized your
NT believed??
O: let me ask you Joe, aside from a discussion about
whether or not the Saints are praying for the Church,..do you attribute to the
Virgin Mary the title Mother of God (Theotokos)?
O: please watch these videos
O: I dare you to watch this video
Me: I forgot I posted that one today. I'll send you one
that's relevant to this conversation when I post it.
O: huh?
Me: Sorry man, I've been really busy lately. I wrote a
blog post that describes my position better but I haven't posted it yet. I'll
send it to you when I do.
O: oh ok
O: me and you talked about a whole lot, I am not sure
which part of our lengthy discussion you are posting in your blog....... I
don't see where it is fair to not allow comments on your blog if you are going
to touch on sensitive issues like these.....my last couple of messages to you
were dealing with the uncreated Light of God and the distinction between God's
Essence and God's Energy, as well as more stuff about the Septuagint as the
divinely inspired OT of Christianity, as well as the importance of Greek
thought in the rise of Christianity......will your blog be dealing with that?
something tells me it wont....I like you and respect you and desire more
dialogue with you, but I have long since wished it could move towards a
personal meeting or at least a phone call
Me: I'm not posting the conversation [I didn’t think it would end this soon, I was
planning on making another post], I just feel an upcoming post I've written
could shed better light on a faith salvation. And I do allow comments; I have
to approve them though, I learned that lesson the hard way.
O: you still haven't even accepted my friend request
but you are going to tell me about salvation?
Me: No I don't. Our belief in something doesn't make it
the truth. Truth doesn't change.
O: what is truth? Christ is the Way, the Truth and the
Life.....I presented you with oceans of evidence that the Orthodox faith is the
unchanged Church that Christ founded.......if you were a truth seeker you would
be interested in seeing what you could learn , not from me, because I am
nothing, but from the Christians who have been here from the beginning, but
instead you speak like some big scholar who has re-invented the wheel and you
act proud
Me: Learning of different beliefs both fascinate and
concern me. Fascinate, because I am interested in how others think and what
leads them to conclusions. Concerns, because you say it correctly: Jesus is THE
way, THE truth, and THE life. The second part of that verse says "no man
cometh unto the Father but by me." Christ is the only way. We have to go
through Him and only through Him. The Bible says there is no other name under
Heaven enter whereby we must be saved. It is not our names or our deeds, it is
Christ's name and His finished deed.
O: Christ is the only way, you say this like we don't
believe this....again if Christ is the only way than why be separated from
Christ, the bible also says the Church is Christ's body...and as I demonstrated
for you, the Orthodox Church is the Church.....what does it mean that no one
comes to the Father but through Christ? you seem to only want this to mean
heaven...again you aren't even aware of what the Lord is saying....the Bible is
written in Greek, the Lord is using Judeo-Platonic language to show that He is
the Logos (Mind, Image, Action, etc) of God.....what is Heaven? Heaven and
"Hell" are both Christ
O: God is beyond being, He exists beyond existence. He
creates, thinks, speaks, acts, and manifests Himself through His Logos, so we
don't pray in to Christ in a third person way like protestants "Heavenly
Father................in Jesus Name"., or like Roman Catholics "
Heavenly Father.........through Christ our Lord".....instead we pray
"Oh Lord Jesus Christ our God".......
O: why don't you pray in the Name of the Father and
the Son and the Holy Spirit and make the sign of the cross when the bible says
to make the sign of the cross on yourself?
so do you accept yet that the Bible was canonized at
the 2nd Ecumenical Council?
Me: You're saying all this with no Biblical proof.
O: for which part?
I can give you biblical proof for anything I said
just ask
and again, the bible was canonized at the 2nd
EC.....I know you wont address that though
O: I just read over your recent comments further [It’s about time]; something you said was
very very interesting....in fact, you made a statement confirming the truth of
Orthodoxy and you must not even know it.....when I asked you what truth is and
said that Christ is the Truth you said to me Christ is unchanged. Joe, which
form of Christianity is unchanged? only one Joe. Greek Orthodoxy
O: I think you are afraid to talk to me in person you
are afraid you will have to answer questions that Facebook and posting on your
blog allow you to dance around. Substitutionary Atonement Theory is derived
from Anglo Saxon systems of justice, for example it is the ultimate sign of
love in the Anglo pagan mind that the king would lay down a ransom in place of
the peasant, because the peasant is low and worthless etc...if you follow the
logic of Atonement theory backwards than you would think that Jewish Sacrifice
was about appeasing the wrath of God, and that no blood sacrifice was enough to
satisfy God's infinite justice....but the problem is that this is NOT the
reason for blood sacrifice in Judaism and never has been, the reason for the
sacrifice is that the animal's life given to God was a glorious thing, because
the animal was sacrificing its life to God because the life goes back to God,
the true meaning is that since death is the ultimate adversary of the Jewish
people, the life of the animals given to God as a sacrifice. the animals were also eaten after they were
sacrificed. So which is compatible with Judaism Joe the Anglo Saxon pagan
concept of justice that doesn't even match the sacrificial system of Judaism?
or the one that matches Judaism feast by feast prayer for prayer in a New
Covenant manner and is the ultimate answer to the main philosophical dilemma in
Judaism?
O: read my last few messages I can provide in depth
and contextually accurate scripture references for anything you have a question
about
O: [Sends
picture]
O: this is what Heaven and "Hell" os
O: is
O: this Icon shows the depiction of the eternity as
the Lord describes it, so your salvation by faith alone is a lie
O: totally against the Lord
O: please meet me or call me or Skype or whatever
O: prefer meet or call
Me: I have a feeling I wouldn't get a word in tsp
talking to someone who sends a dozen straight messages.
O: yea you would man
O: why would you trivialize my messages instead of
responding to them? I am at home and didn't work today, you messaged me and
said you have the truth and you are talking about salvation, and sending me
your blog like your words of wisdom are going to save me because as you say it
you have the truth....well I don't have a blog Joe, here is my blog. I most
certainly would let you talk
O: your truth is a false truth, I have made the claim
that you and I worship a totally different Christ, that is a pretty big claim,
you worship a different Christ than the Christ of the New Testament yet you act
like you represent the New Testament. Christ is the God of all creation, the
Mind of the Father, the Wisdom of God and His Power and Radiance and Action. He
made all things, and He became man in the fullness of time to destroy death and
illuminate all creation with the uncreated Light of His Resurrection, preparing
all things for the Last Day, when He will be all in all in His
creation.........you worship the angry father who had to torture his son to pay
the ransom for the sin of man. lets talk I will let you talk I am a nice guy
man
At this point I
ended the conversation. I shared the truth and backed it up with Biblical
evidence. While he did present some verses, the appeal was largely to
tradition, which, as I said, is different for each religion which claims it.
The Bible, though commonly misinterpreted when context is ignored, does not
change- unless others change it later on. Pray for this man, his heart is so
hardened to what God truly says.