To true Christians out there, we must remember that just because a religion is grouped under Christianity does not make them Christians. Placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone makes us Christians; this is with or without a denominational tie. It is no church that saves us, but what Christ did. Be careful to assume that a moral person who claims Christianity is a Christian. Anything we trust in apart from God will lead us, no matter how moral, on a path to Hell.
It may be noteworthy that while the gap between responses to me was often a day or longer, I responded at the latest within a few hours.
Post (Catholic #1): Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro Catholic Church, is dead. He was a very hateful man to the very end, yes, but it is also our duty to forgive hatred that love may take its place. Is Fred Phelps in Hell right now? Maybe, maybe not, only God knows what the true state of his soul was and whether he eventually repented of it all at the end. For all we know, he could just be in Purgatory for a very long time. Either way, I will be praying for the repose of his soul, as much as his hate angered me in life, for we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.
“We should pray the repose of Fred Phelps’ soul” (“Catholic Memes” photo)
[Two comments not pertaining to discussion]
Me: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." (Luke 16:26)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:18, 36)
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom. 8:1)
Clearly the Bible shows two options: Heaven, permanently, or Hell/the Lake of Fire permanently. There is never a mention of purgatory. Don't mean to undermine your religion, but credit shouldn't be given where it doesn't exist. I hope he did know Christ as his Savior and was just messed up, but since "by their fruits ye shall know them", he is probably in Hell. No praying can change his decision.
Catholic #2: Purgatory does exist. Only the perfect, the sinless are in Heaven. When we die, we aren't perfect, so we have to undergo the process of perfection in Purgatory. I believe that St. Paul eludes to Purgatory in one of his letters, but I forget which one.
C2: Since when is the Bible the only source of truth? Ah, yeah, it was the shamed rebel Martin Luther who concocted "sola scriptura." The Bible makes no mention of "sola scriptura." St. Paul and St. James mention multiple times that our faith is based upon tradition as well as other things. Tradition includes non-scriptural means of teaching. Christ Himself set St. Peter as the leader of His Church in St. Matthew's Gospel and also told him that He would be with His Church until the end of time, clearly establishing that Catholic teaching is infallible, and Catholic teaching includes Purgatory.
Me: There are no perfect, sinless people (Rom. 3:23), hence by your reasoning no one would be in Heaven.
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -II Tim. 3:15-17
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." -James 1:21
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." -John 20:30
These verses directly contrast the Catholic church's teaching on the Bible. Christ set Himself as the head of the church: "Thou art Peter (Greek word "Petros", meaning a stone), and upon this rock (Greek word "Petra", meaning foundational rock) I will build my church. Jesus said He will build His church, not Peter will build Peter's church. And Jesus spoke of Himself as that Rock. Peter himself said, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner," (I Peter 2:5-7). Christians are lively stones, copying what Jesus named him, but Christ himself is that cornerstone.
It is true Christ is with His church. But at the same time He said, "Lo, I am with you alway," He also said, "All power is given unto me." The Greek behind that word "power" means authority. Hence the authority is Christ's, not a church's.
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -Ephesians 1:22-23
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -Colossians 1:18
Christ is the head of the church, not any man, and Christ has authority over it. God has given us all the teachings He wanted us to have in the Bible.
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." -I Corinthians 13:8-10
God ceased to give new revelations when His Word was completed. And since "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8) that doctrine does not change.
Jesus did not create His church infallible. There are many predictions in the New Testament of a great falling away. Paul mentions it to Timothy and in other books, Jude is written for it, and Peter mentions it in II Peter. The church isn't fallible; it's head, Jesus Christ is. And He gave us His infallible Word. To follow after the words of man, who is sinful and imperfect, is to follow in error when God has given us the way to salvation and His truth through His Word.
C2: God made Blessed Mother Mary sinless from the moment of conception. Nowhere does the Bible say that scripture is the only basis and form of teaching and faith. The verses that you've presented don't contradict my statement. The Bible doesn't contradict Catholic teaching because Catholic teaching doesn't contradict the Bible. Exactly how do you assert that the Bible does contradict Catholic teaching? I never said that St. Peter would build St. Peter's church. I said that Christ made St. Peter the leader of His Church, which is what Christ did. Christ spoke of St. Peter as His rock, that is, the leader of His Church. "Christ" has no reference to rock or stone, nor has "Messiah" or "Jesus." Christ is the Head of the Church, but the earthly head of His Church is the successor to St. Peter. Christ has authority over the Church and guides Her in teaching through His Holy Spirit, Who speaks through the successor to St. Peter. God continually speaks to us through the successor to St. Peter. I never said that Christ created His Church to be infallible. I said that Catholic teaching is infallible. There's a difference. Man needs a guide for infallible teaching or else such evils as abortion, contraception, and the practice of homosexuality pervade and run rampant. Sadly these things still exist because the rejection by Christians of the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church.
C1: Tempted to delete this and repost it without that horrible typo [mentions who pointed out that he had called them “Westboro Catholic Church”] but don't want to interrupt the conversation that now seems to have started.
Me: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."- Romans 3:23
Included in all is Mary. Obviously, and the Bible tells us, she was a good woman, but not sinless.
That is one of many teachings of the Catholic church that contradict the Bible.
Christ is called the "chief corner stone". Peter had a leadership role in the first century church but in no way was his teaching infallible. In fact, Paul had to rebuke him at one point.
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." -Galatians 2:11
How does an infallible "pope" need rebuking?
Evils in the world exist because of man's sin nature. There are plenty of Christians that find these wrong. However, as half of professing Catholics voted for president Obama last election, perhaps many of them need to know these issues.
Sinful man cannot be infallible; the only infallible teaching comes from God's Word. Traditions outside of the Bible run contrary to that.
And you have failed to give me any scriptural references for your position.
C1: >implying all "Professing Catholics" are actually professing Catholics in communion with Rome and practicing their faith
Me: Correct, however, when many Catholics don't follow the Catholic church's teaching, others should not be held to it. I prefer to follow the Bible's teaching.
Me: Allow me to show you what the most important thing the Catholic church is wrong on:
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” –Romans 3:20-28
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.” –Romans 4:1-9
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” –Romans 5:1
“Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on…Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” –Luke 7:39-40, 47-50
“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” –Luke 8:36-39
“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” –Acts 2:21
“Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.” –Acts 16:29-32
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” –John 3:14-18
I know that “faith without works is dead”, as it says in James, but works is a result of faith in Christ and the change that He works in our heart.
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” –Romans 6:6-14
Working alone, or a mix of works and faith, does nothing for us. I would live and let live, but this is the difference between Heaven and Hell; it is of the upmost importance. One must place their faith in what Christ has done. Do with it what you will.
C2: Joe, I don't necessarily read long comments/posts, and I admit that I didn't read all of you last one. I'm too exhausted from [a trip]. By the way, [C1], I'm going to post something about my morning prayer/meditation from this morning on my wall in a few minutes. Take a look at it. It's a bit humorous. Everywhere St. Paul writes about "works," he's referring to works of the law (Jewish law). These are the 601-ish things that the Pharisees established that are burdensome to which Christ calls all the weary from having to perform these works. St. James in 2:14-26 says, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”l See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." If you believe in the Bible, Joe, you have to believe that simply saying that you're Christian without acting in accordance with the teachings of Christ and in charity (love) for others, you'll end up in Hell. Oh Blessed Mother Mary was sinless from the moment of conception. Christ made her sinless so that He could come into the world by means of a virtuous person. Divine revelation gives us this teaching through the Catholic Church, which Christ established as His Church. All other Christian churches are man-made.
C2: [C1], I'll let you address the rest of Joe's comment. As of now I feel that your better at apologetics than I am. If I see something that I can add, I'll do that, but I need to learn more about the Old and New Testaments for now. The course that I'll be starting at the end of the month is on the Old Testament. Sometime later I'll be studying the New Testament.
C1: Joe: I am sick and tired of the old trope that Catholics apparently don't read the Bible. Every single Catholic teaching is based in or older than the Bible, and need I mention that Catholics didn't remove any books from it, unlike a certain Martin Luther did. The biggest Protestant error of them all that contradicts the Bible is this: To believe any of the Protestant churches, one must accept that for 1500 years the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church, which we are told in the Bible will never happen.
Me: Paul spoke on the idea of God's act of declaring one righteous. Many Old Testament and gospel usages involved demonstrating one to be righteous, including James. They addressed different crowds: Paul Judaizers who were trying to prove that Gentiles could be saved by works of the law, James to nominal, professing Christians. He sought to show them that their profession was not enough, but that (as Jesus said "by their fruit ye shall know them") their works should be behind it. If the two were in conflict, circumcision would have came up, since it was always in Paul's discussions. Though the Catholic church does not teach the Jewish law, it does teach its own law that works are needed for salvation- exactly what Paul spoke against (and Peter, and Philip, and Jesus, etc.).
Me: I never said Catholics don't read the Bible; it is misinterpreted and added to by tradition. The Apocrypha was never part of the canon of scripture except in the Catholic church. In fact, Rome didn't add it to your Bible until 1546. James and Hebrews were also initially rejected, then added. How can an infallible church be wrong on that?
Me: The Protestant movement had its obvious merits, such as breaking away from indulgences and torturing and burning dissenters in Inquisitions. But not all "Protestant" churches came from that movement. The Baptist church traces its line to the first century church. And it has never followed traditions above the Bible; that is never what Christ's apostles would have taught.
C2: Joe, indulgences weren't Church-wide. No teaching promoting them has ever existed; it was a practice only in individual parishes and dioceses. My recollection of the Inquisition was not that the Church led it but that individual kings, like the king of Spain, led it. It wasn't Church teaching. I've heard the false claim that Baptists trace their roots back to the first century, but that's false. Only one Christian church existed for centuries, and that is what is the Catholic Church now.
Me: Let me offer a slight correction. The name "Baptist", as the denomination, has not always been around, but churches who believe the Bible's teaching on salvation through faith and baptism as an outward sign of that faith have- because that is what Christ and the apostles taught.
Me: Many popes were actually heavily involved in Inquisitions. The 1233 Papal Inquisition was instituted by Pope Gregory IX, The 1478-1834 Spanish Inquisition by Pope Sixtus IV, the 1542-1700 Roman Inquisition by Pope Paul III. Pope Innocent III stated, "Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with church dogma must be burnt without pity." Pope Innocent IV authorized the creation of torture chambers. These chambers involved some of the worst forms of torture mankind has ever seen. The Rack, The Pear, The Branks, The Heretics Fork, The Wheel, The Breast Ripper (used for just that purpose on women)...The list could go on. Many especially liked to go after women in "witch hunts". Clement of Alexandria: "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman." Odo of Cluny: "To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure..." Thomas Aquinas: "nothing [deficient] or defective should have been produced in the first establishment of things; so woman ought not to have been produced then." (Accusing God of making a mistake?) Going after witches did, however, allow them the church to continue to profit on the Inquisition. Eymeric had complained, "In our days there are no more rich heretics... it is a pity that so salutary an institution as ours should be so uncertain of its future." Accused witches were stripped down and looked over for birthmarks or freckles that would give them off as being witches. When the men found themselves sexually aroused, they assumed it came from the woman and attacked her breasts and genitals with pincers, pliers, and hot irons. All this can be confirmed historically, and it was done by those in the church with permission of popes at the time. Does this sound like an infallible church to you?
C2: The Inquisition hasn't been Church teaching. Where do you get these claims that popes tortured and murdered? Granted, all people are sinful, and some popes have been mortally sinful. This doesn't mean that their behavior is Church teaching. That's not how Church teaching operates. Your sins aren't what disqualify your argument, Joe, and no pope's behavior disqualifies the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ started. What disqualifies your argument is the words that you speak/write/otherwise convey. St. Paul said that wives are to be subordinate to their husbands. That doesn't disqualify his preaching otherwise. Where do you get your quotes for Pope St. Clement and St. Thomas Aquinas? I'm noticing that you're a lot of "...;" that appears to me to be taking the quote out of context. Please provide the entire quote if you're going to provide any of it. Many Protestants carve their quotes out to support only their argument and leave out the context of the writing. Catholic teaching is infallible. Your behavior, like all anti-Catholic bigotry, certainly isn't, though. I add, too, that St. Paul writes in 1st Corinthians, 13:13, "So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Faith isn't the greatest. Hope isn't the greatest. Love, that is, charity, is the greatest. We cannot simply believe that Christ is the Savior of mankind; we must act on our love for one another. Faith without good deeds will land us in Hell. Our charitable acts, along with repentance for our sins, will turn Christ's Mercy toward us.
Me: A pope telling us that anyone who contradicts church views should be burnt isn't church teaching? How does any of the above qualify as charitable acts? Could you tell me exactly how much charitable action you have to do to make it to Heaven?
What do you qualify as repentance? Peter said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." That's a one time deal. When the Catholic church does not correctly interpret James 2, Matthew 16:18, or other such verses but ignores the many verses that tell us sinful man cannot work his own way into Heaven, I respectfully ask you not to speak to me on context.
Catholic #3: If I may interject into this conversation, reading through this discussion I see that Joe you really don’t know what Catholic actually believe and practice or why. Using random Bible verses out of context is a desperate attempt to prove your point of view right and doesn’t prove anything at all. Evil attacks that which is most good and holy, so no, its no surprise that there have been evil people masquerading as holy people in the Church, but the evil actions of these individuals are not a reflection of what the Church actually teaches or believes. By the way, The Pope is only considered infallible when he speaks from the Chair of Saint Peter and this has only happened about twice in the 2000 years of the Church.
Catholics didn’t add books, Protestants removed them because they supported thing Protestants didn’t want to believe in such as Purgatory, which comes from II Maccabees one of the removed books. Our translation comes from the Septuagint, which is what Christ, the Apostles and the Early Christians used. Purgatory also called the Final Theosis by the Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics is simply the cleansing area before entering heaven, where Gods grace and mercy are at work.
The belief that faith with out works is dead simply means the truly faithful do good works anyway simply because they love Christ not out of trying to by their way to heaven as is a common misunderstanding Protestants make about Catholics. If a person doesn’t put their faith into action they can say they have faith all they want but it doesn’t make it true. So yes faith with out works is dead.
Me: We seemed to be on the same page in your last paragraph. Perhaps the one significant variance is that you are placing your faith in yourself and a church as well instead of the One who created you. I have met some Catholics who believe in salvation through faith alone; I pray you are one of them.
The Apocrypha was actually added, as I stated before, in 1546. The Catholic church never had any Biblical proof for many of its teachings such as salvation through sacraments and Purgatory; hence when the "heretics" of the Reformation began to question it, it had to cover itself, and allowed in non-canonical books that are contrary to true scripture. It was the Jewish Christians in the second century that has determined the canon of scripture based on strict guidelines; Catholicism altered this.
On a side note, could you tell me the correct context of the verses I've used?
C1: You've never studied the Church Fathers, have you?
Me: If you mean your church's, no, not much. "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." -Matthew 23:9
C1: Aaaaand that favorite verse of Protestants to take out of context appears. Keep in mind the Church Fathers were leaders of the Church in a time even Protestants acknowledge as the canonical "early Church".
C2: Joe, you should provide all answers to our existing questions before you ask of us questions. I asked you where you got your quotes by Pope St. Clement and St. Thomas Aquinas. I want answers. If you want to continue down the road of faith without works, what did Christ say throughout the Gospels? "Repent and sin no more." What did He say about charitable acts? "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me" (Matt. 25.40). "Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me" (Matt. 25.45). What did He say would happen, respectively? Those that did charitable works will join Him in His kingdom, and those who neglected charitable works will go off to eternal punishment.
C2: May I note, please, that I like the story of St. Nicholas' slapping a heretic. Slapping heretics is a holy act, but one should do so also by legal means. A verbal "slap" is just as good as a physical slap.
Me: Those who don't have answers usually avoid answering questions posed- or add books to the Bible. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm
Me: You failed to read the beginning of Christ's teaching in that part of Matthew 25- "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he shall sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" (Matt. 25:31-32). Jesus spoke of the judgment of the nations after the tribulation, not our judgment. And the people were already separated when He gave his judgment- He just makes a point of saying that they had not treated the "least of these" (the saved of the tribulation) well. Again, you are taking passages out of context. As to your other reference, Jesus does want us to repent and sin no more. But that starts with repentance- Biblical repentance, not what a church hands down by tradition.
Me: [C1], we do acknowledge it as the early church, but we, per Christ's teaching, do not call them "Fathers". And we deny that He established the Catholic church as the one true church. The church is the body of believers in Christ; that is not limited to any denomination or ties. When Christ first established His church (on himself, not Peter, as I established) there were no meetings at first, and definitely no mass. But there was a body of believers who trusted in Him. THAT is what the gates of Hell will not prevail against; because it is created by Jesus and trusts in Jesus. Anything that teaches otherwise or leans on anyone or anything else is not only being prevailed against, but is wrong.
C3: If the books Protestants call the Apocrypha were not included until 1546 can you please explain why the Guttenburg Bible the first book ever printed in 1454 nearly 100 years prior contains these books just like the Catholic Bibles do? No you can’t explain that because what you are saying is historically inaccurate.
Regarding context, let me show you how easy it is to take scripture out of context. For example: Ephesians 2:8-9 is commonly used to “prove” saved by faith alone idea.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
However, this completely ignores the context by excluding Ephesians 2:10. Ephesians 2:8-10 actually supports the doctrine of saved by grace through faith and works.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
The surrounding verses form the immediate framework for it’s meaning. Using one or two verses to attempt to prove a point is a common tactic I have seen among Protestants in an attempt to “evangelize” Catholics because in their minds we need to be “saved.” Never understood what the point of sheep steeling is when there are plenty of people who actually could benefit from being evangelized, such as atheists.
Also, with all due respect Christ established the Mass at the Last Supper, which was foreshadowed in Exodus by the Passover. By celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus' passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom. Sunday, the day of Jesus' resurrection, is when the Christians met "to break bread." From that time on down to our own day the celebration of the Eucharist has been continued so that today we encounter it everywhere in the Church with the same fundamental structure. It remains the center of the Church's life and it breaks my heart so many a separated from it.
Me: The Apocrypha was not "officially" added to your Bible until 1546; I figured you knew Catholic history. The books existed before, and were occasionally included in translation of the Septuagint- a completely inaccurate Bible translation that came out of Alexandria, Egypt ("the hotbed of heresy"). Most of these books were written during the intertestimental period- the 400 years between the Old Testament's completion and the coming of Christ when God did not directly speak to man. Thus to put them in the Old Testament would be incorrect anyway. They are never mentioned or quoted from by anyone in the New Testament. They are full of historical and geographical inaccuracies. They teach doctrines in contrast to true scripture. They are not found in any ancient manuscripts. They are not in the style of the Bible, such as prophetic power. Christ established the Lord's Supper at the Last Supper, "as oft as ye do it, do in remembrance of me." If the Catholic church wants to design a mass around that, that is their business, but Christ has never established a mass. The Eucharist is based in traditions that are against the Bible; God has exalted His Word above His name (Psalm 138:2), and hence would not want us choosing our traditions over what He gave us as ultimate truth. As to Ephesians 2, you have entirely murdered it. God has made Christians His "workmanship" and has created them unto good works. "Before ordained" has to do with the doctrine of predestination- not as Calvinists construe it, but as God puts it. Since a sovereign God knows who will accept Him, he has literally prepared those to walk in good works. But this comes from Him, not of ourselves, as verses 8-9 so plainly tells us. How you can get past "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." I have no idea. It is of faith, not anything we can do. If it was works, we could be able to brag that we got ourselves there. But we can't because it is God's gift. This isn't "sheep stealing"; sheep are of the flock. Only those that have a personal relationship with God can have merit with God through His Son and, at the end of it all, gain entrance into Heaven. Whether someone doesn't believe in God or is deeply stooped in religion but still apart from Him, they all need evangelized.
C2: Joe, what are the credentials of the website that you posted. I saw none. Anyone can develop a website and include false things on it. in Matthew 25:40 Christ spoke of our own judgments. There are holy people in every nation. Judging the holy based upon that acts of the evil would be unjust, but Christ is the Just Judge, so He was referring to our own personal judgments. I'm not the one taking verses out of context; you're the one doing that, and now you're wrongly accusing me of that which you've been doing. Such behavior is that of the heretics. St. Paul numerous times speaks of Church Tradition in a favorable light. He encourages Tradition. We do call the early Church leaders "Church Fathers." That's their official title. The Church that Christ started is the Catholic Church. However, anybody truly pursuing Truth is part of the Body of Christ, His Church. Christ established His Church on St. Peter. No evidence suggests otherwise. The Catholic Church is that to which Christ said that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail. Where do you get your claim that the Apocrypha wasn't part of the Bible until 1546. A simple online search gives information otherwise on Wikipedia. You obviously don't know Catholic history. Throughout your last comment you make statements that you don't back with evidence, something else that heretics often do. The Eucharist is the Last Supper. Thus, it is the Mass. Please stop lying and giving heresy. Why can't you get past "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).
C2: I'm still waiting for a valid source where you got the quotes that you claim are from Pope St. Clement and St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Nicholas, slap the heretic.
Me: I gave you that source awhile ago. If you're trusting Wikipedia as a source, I'm not sure how much of an intelligent conversation we can have. Matthew 25 is the judgment after the millennial reign of Christ; us living at this time will have already been decided based on the choice we made in our lives, and will either be ruling with Christ or in Hell. You, in counter, are blatantly denying the evidence I am presenting you while offering none of your own. You keep going back to one verse we agree on: "Faith without works is dead." The problem is, you are missing the faith. This is faith in Christ, not in a church or a pope or sacraments. You are presenting no evidence of your own, few Biblical references, and throwing what your church teaches you at me all while calling me a heretic for disagreeing. If you want to do that, fine by me, but don't expect yourself to be taken seriously.
Me: I did, however, forget to give you a non-exhaustive list of things that Catholic church contradicts the Bible on:
As before mentioned, Purgatory, salvation through works, Peter not being established as the head of the church but Christ, and calling church leaders "father".
Canonization- the process is not in the Bible, and in fact, all true Christians are called saints. "Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints," (Colossians 1:4). "Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints," (Ephesians 1:15). Even more references are in the Old Testament. "But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight." (Psalm 16:3). "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints." (Psalm 116:15). "They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the Lord." (Psalm 106:16). Before the church was established and the Catholic church existed, the assembly and specific people were called saints. Everyone Paul wrote to was included in this label. Because sainthood isn't a title given, it refers to anyone who has trusted in faith in God.
The use of the office of priest is not accurate, as all Christians have priesthood. "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" (I Peter 2:5,9).
Making confessions is unnecessary. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Timothy 2:5). The man Jesus is the only go between. There used to be priests, but now Christ is our High Priest. "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:11-15, 21, 28).
Baptism is supposed to be by immersion after salvation. The Greek word that it comes from, "baptizo", means to dip or to immerse. "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12). "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." (Acts 8:35-38).
The making of images and praying to/worshipping them is prohibited. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:4-5).
The immaculate conception is against the Bible's teaching. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23). "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12). And Mary didn't stay a virgin. "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee." (Matthew 12:46-47). The books of James and Jude were both written by Jesus' half brothers.
Mary is not to be worshipped either. "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28).
The consumption of alcohol is also against scripture. The word translated wine is "oinos", which simply means fruit of the vine. Jesus would not cause people to go against the Bible. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1). "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again." (Proverbs 23:29-35).
Bishops are to be married. "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (I Timothy 3:2, 4-5).
Clerical dress is taught against. "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments," (Matthew 23:5).
Either the Catholic church is wrong, or every writer of the Bible and the God who inspired them is a heretic.
C3: So you ignore historical fact, insisting on sticking to your made up history, and claim I am the one who doesn’t know history? The Septuagint is indeed valid considering it has been in use since the second century BC. Orthodox Christians also use the Septuagint and as I said before please explain why the Guttenburg Bible the first book ever printed in 1454 nearly 100 years prior contains these books just like the Catholic Bibles do?
“Canization was still a concern in the sixteenth century, when Protestant reformers decided to exclude the books of the Deuterocannon from the Old Testament, and the Roman Catholic Council of Trent (1546) reaffirmed the canonicity of most of the “Apocrypha” “ quoted from An Introduction to the Bible Journey into Three Worlds 5th Edition by Christian E. Hauer and William A. Young page 10. The Council of Trent was only called to address the heresies of protestant reformers trying to remove these books from the cannon. You have no evidence to support your claim and your false history has fallen like the walls of Jericho.
Truthfully your latest post makes you come off as one of those anti – Catholic bigots who is so blinded by your own hatred towards us that you are too lazy to even learn what we actually believe and practice. Instead you believe the lies you have been told by false teachers.
Here are several examples of how you don’t know what you are talking about:
Catholics don’t worship statues or icons. Do you have pictures of your family and friends hanging in your house? Bet you do, so you must be an idol worshiper! See how ignorant that sounds, and you sound just as ignorant making your false accusations. We don’t worship Mary or the Saints either because prayer and worship are, not the same thing. Prayer means to ask for, Catholics believe that the dead are alive in heaven presently and when we pray to the Saints or to Mary we are simply asking them to ask God for our intention just as we would ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. Worship is more than a prayer; it is to praise our creator and worship is reserved for God alone. Catholics also refer to all of the faithful as saints but also recognize holy individuals who are mortal role models to inspire us to strive to have such a close relationship and trust with the Lord. The Catholic Church is made up of 23 different churches whom all share the same doctrines and theology. Of the 23 only one, the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t allow married men to be ordained into the Priesthood at this time although that could change as it is not against church teaching for married men to be ordained its just the current practice. So yes we do have married men that are Priests with families!
Scripture warns us of false teachers with no authority twisting the Word of God and inventing their own views through their individual interpretation of scripture without taking into account the authority of the Apostles.
“ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Christ said, as they hate me they will hate you. Like I said before evil attacks that which is most good and holy. Wild interpretations are simply not helpful to anybody, they lead astray and simply confuse.
Please educate yourself and stop spreading false witness against us, accusing us of believing something we don’t is extremely offensive and makes you look ignorant. Here is a resource if you actually care to learn what we actually believe: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Me: There is no need to pray to anyone in Heaven but Christ (I Timothy 2:5). I hate no one; I am trying to help you see the truth. God doesn't care what men say, He cares what He says. I'll look over it when I get time. Let me remind you, however, that if you consult any speech textbook, it will tell you that an appeal to tradition is a common fallacy. Using the Orthodox church to defend yourself is interesting because they are fairly similar in their incorrect use of tradition, yet Catholics don't consider the Orthodox church legitimate, and the Orthodox doesn't consider the Catholic church legitimate. Which traditions are correct? Which will actually get one to Heaven? Which was actually established as Christ's church?
C1: >equating Orthodox to "incorrect use of history"
>expecting any Church historian to take you seriously
C1: Next you're probably going to say the Catholics had a time machine they used to rewrite early Church tradition. Because you cannot claim that Protestants follow the full tradition of the early Church as established by Christ.
Me: Christ gave us His Word, not His traditions. In fact, He was the Word in the flesh (John 1:14). Any time the apostles gave their words for "traditions", it became part of the Bible. Show me any proof that your traditions are apostolic in nature.
Me: If the Catholic and Orthodox churches both claim to be THE church, the pillar and ground of the truth protected from error, why do they differ so much on their doctrines? Who are we to believe?
Me: The Orthodox church claims apostolic tradition too, but theirs is different. Who's right?
C1: Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox can trace their succession of bishops and priests back to the Apostles through Holy Orders, which can't be said for Protestant pastors. Also watch your terms: Eastern Orthodox churches are in fact Catholic. This is because that split happened long before a certain Martin Luther was ever born.
Me: But the Greek Orthodox church is not. But I'm glad you mentioned Eastern Orthodox: the synod Carthage in 393 AD stated, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon." If Rome had to confirm the canon, that would mean it had no part in creating it. Carthage later became part of the Eastern Orthodox church- if anything, I would think that they would have a better claim at having determined the canon than the Catholic church.
C3: I mention the Orthodox Church because until the Great Schism of 1054 were in full communion with the Catholic Church and their Bibles also contain the “Apocrypha” books you claim weren’t part of the cannon till 1564. Still haven’t seen an attempt to disprove the Guttenburg Bible issue that conflicts with your inaccurate history.
Is this a bad time to mention that Eastern Catholics such as the Melekite Catholics and the Ruthian Catholics celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is what the Orthodox Church also uses yet are also in full communion with Roman Catholics? The Eastern Catholic churches are actually encouraged to cultivate their own distinctive theological expressions. They do agree with the Roman Catholics on fundamental matters of doctrine, except it is approached from the Eastern perspective relying almost exclusively on the Eastern Church Fathers. This difference, rather than rupturing the unity of the Church, further expresses the true universality of Christ's Church.
Also I find it interesting that “oinos” a Greek word is your evidence for why alcohol is not allowed to be consumed after all the only books originally written in Greek are the very books you don’t accept as scripture. The word you are looking for is “yayin” which is used over 130 times in the Hebrew Bible to mean fermented wine, not grape juice. Plus, Christ’s first miracle was to turn water into wine at the wedding feast at Cana. So to argue that alcohol in moderation is no ok is silly and is an unbiblical belief.
Catholics are already Christians and we already enjoy the fullness of truth. We don’t need to “get saved” and energy could be spent trying to convince non-believers because there is no point to proselytize people whom are already believers in Christ. I believe you are genuine in your concern for our souls and I truly appreciate it, but I think I will stay at the banquet feast of the Lord and you are always welcome to join us. I wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey and where ever that road may take you. God Bless.
Me: Most of the New Testament was written in Greek.
I mention the Greek Orthodox church because it does not agree with you, but also claims apostolic roots, that its traditions are correct, and that it gave the world the Bible. The answer to "Why are you right?" for both sides boils down to "because we say so". The Catholic church is right because we're the true church; we're the true church because we're right. It's circular logic you can't get past. This is why God gave us His Word. Traditions change as they are passed down or based on who's in charge. Does this mean the qualifications to get to Heaven change? " Jesus Christ the same today, yesterday, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8). The Bible doesn't change (not the true one, at least).
You don't use the term believer correctly. The Bible is clear on what a believer is. A simple belief in Christ and fulfilling your religious duties means nothing- James tells us "the devils believe and tremble." I certainly go after others as well, as they are less stubborn, being not as deeply indoctrinated by ritual and tradition, but all lost souls need Jesus.
C1: You do know early (Catholic) Christians lived out their faith before the Bible even existed right? If sola scriptura was the only way to salvation, Jesus would have said, "Here, take this book and take everything in it completely literally and you will be saved."
C3: Considering you don’t know what we believe not sure how you think you can compare what Catholics believe with the Orthodox. Truthfully I’m not sure you even comprehend the basics of the Orthodox either or you would know Greek Orthodox isn’t separate from the rest of the Orthodox Church. So what is your point? The Orthodox Church is really not significantly different from the Catholic Church.
What part of all of the Orthodox Church and all of the Catholic Church were one in the same till 1054 don’t you get? Is historical fact really that hard to grasp? Still waiting on for the Guttenburg Bible explanation that you completely ignore. The true Biblical Cannon hasn’t changed you just don’t accept it and would rather believe myths about Catholics to justify it because your entire belief system would crumble if you accept what history clearly shows as the truth.
The only thing you have proven is that you don’t believe Catholics are Christians because you have been mislead about what the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes. You are so blinded by the false teaching of sola scriptoria and personal interpretations of scripture therefore in your mind we are all a bunch of lost souls whom could not possibly think for themselves and whom actually have chosen to believe.
Your history is inaccurate and your reject scripture when placed in its context because it no longer agrees with what you desire and wish it actually said. The truth is always true whether you accept that truth or not is your choice. By all means continue to believe in false history. I honestly can’t take you seriously when you can’t even rise to the challenge of a question that shouldn’t be difficult if you had the truth. So, I prefer to follow the teachings of the One True King and trust in the guidance of those whom he entrusted to teach us rather than false beliefs.
C2: Joe, you never gave a credible source for your claims of quotes by Pope St. Clement or St. Thomas Aquinas. I didn't even bother reading that website that you posted, if that's what you meant, because I found no credentials for it. I was "trusting" Wikipedia; rather, I was pointing to how easy it is to find a source. Wikipedia does have requirements for posting, though. If you think that you can't have an intelligent conversation on Truth, look at your own methods of presenting your points, as I've critiqued a few times. You haven’t provided any legitimate “evidence” for any of your positions because it’s not there. You’ve been perverting the Word of God to suit your own beliefs against His Word and the Church that He started. I’m not missing faith. I’ve presented my evidence and cited it in most cases, and most of my evidence comes from St. James’ epistle and St. Matthew’s Gospel. I’m pointing out the truth that you’ve been presenting heresy because it is. Untruth is heresy. You’re presenting untruth and therefore heresy. Take note that I didn’t bother reading beyond the first five lines of your next comment, Joe, because those topics are there, as I’ve already presented about Purgatory. When Christ instructed us not to call anyone “Father,” the context is “Father” as in “Creator.” We’re allowed to call our male parents “Father” in that context, and Church Fathers such and priests “Father” in the proper context. Joe, your words show that you hate Christ by means of hating the Church that He started. As I’ve stated already St. Paul speaks affirmatively through multiple epistles about Tradition. The Second Council of Nicaea in the late 700s permitted icons, so your claim against that is void. Here’s my citation. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum07.htm
It’s in the “Definitions” section before you get to “CANON.” Anyone who has good intentions and seeks Truth will receive Christ’s mercy. This goes back to something that I’ve said before. Sadly, your comments throughout haven’t shown good intention, but a great hate for the Truth in Christ and for the Church that He started. It sounds like somebody brainwashed you as a child to spew these lies.
C2: Once again, Joe, please provide a credible source for your quotes of Pope St. Clement and St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Nicholas both slap and pray for the heretic.
C2: Suggesting that you don't need the intercession of the saints and angels in Heaven with Christ in order to receive His mercy hints at sinful pride, Joe. We all need their intercession, for Christ is under no obligation to grant mercy to our souls. He does so out of love for us and as a result of the intercession of His saints and angels.
Me: The Greek Orthodox church varies more, including on the method of baptism, very important to you. If both churches are based on tradition, how can they be divided on this teaching. Which tradition do we hold to?
I don't care what councils say, if they go against biblical teaching.
"Sola scriptura" is not what saves, nor did I ever claim that. It was faith that saved before Christ came, and it is faith that saves now.
I've been getting pestered about Gutenberg for awhile. This shows the lack of knowledge about one's own history. Gutenberg was a Catholic and translated a version of the Vulgate (translated by the linguist Jerome, who actually objected to the Apocrypha being in it). The books were not firmly declared divine until the Council of Trent in, yes, 1546. Of course they were used before then because they existed before then. It is interesting to note that there is never a direct references to the Apocrypha in the New Testament. It's okay to use the term "Apocrypha", as Jerome himself created it. "The most influential benefactor of the Apocrypha was Augustine (354-420 A.D.), the "Father of corrupt theology." He influenced the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.) to declare the Apocrypha canonical. In his usual form, Augustine also saw to it that any opposition to the Apocrypha was suppressed." [Robert J. Sargent, Canonization: The Apocrypha]. Origen (AD 200), stated, "It should be observed that the collective books, as handed down by the Hebrews, are twenty-two, according to the number of letters in their alphabet. These twenty-two books, according to the Hebrews, are as follows ..." and he then lists the books as we know them from the Hebrew Bible. He did know about the Apocrypha because he said, "Separate from these are the Maccabees." [Bibliotheca Sacra, p. 296] Athanasius (AD 330), stated, "The books of the Old Testament are twenty-two, which is the number of the letters among the Hebrews. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, of Kings four, two books; of Paralipomenon (Chronicles) two, one book; Esdras two, one book; Psalms, Proverbs; twelve prophets, one book; then Isaiah, Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and epistles; Ezekiel and Daniel. Then there are books uncanonical, but readable, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit." Though odd to add Baruch and reject Esther, it is still significant to note that a distinction was maintained between canonical books and books of interest. The Apocrypha as a whole were rejected as being inspired literature. [Bibliotheca Sacra, p. 297]
You continue to call me a liar without any real proof of your own, just a "because I said so" attitude. "Why is the Catholic church infallible?" "Because it says its infallible." How do you buy into this?
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). This is not me calling you false or heretics or having a slapping fetish, this is the Bible saying it is the authority. "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31). Where are the words of Moses and the prophets? Not in your traditions. What makes you think when Paul uses "tradition" he is referring to something a council or pope writes up and passes on? Or even "apostolic" traditions. He refers to the traditions of the Bible.
In a sense, Jesus doesn't have to offer us His mercy. However, since He came to die to take away our sins, and made this promise, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37), He has obligated Himself.
C2: Joe, we've explained more than once why Catholic teaching is infallible. Christ Himself said so. Refer back to our relevant comments. Christ did come to offer us His mercy. He came not to take away our sins, but to offer to the Father an acceptable sacrifice for us so that we can properly repent of our sins and turn back to Him. Faith alone does not save us, for as I've said more than once in other ways, faith by itself is no better than the corruption of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. Faith didn't save man before Christ came, for all that died in proper relationship with God before Christ were dead until His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven. These people had great faith, but they refused to act upon it. They were full of corruption, as are all who believe in faith alone as the method of salvation. Christ is God; He has no obligation to us at all. All Council teaching is consistent with the Bible, as it is Catholic teaching. You couldn’t possibly truthfully call me a heretic, for a heretic doesn’t have Truth with him, and as I’ve been trying my best to relate Truth to you in sincerity, using what I understand of Catholic teaching, what I say isn’t by any means heresy.
Joe, after I commented yesterday, the Holy Spirit moved me to pity for you and for all like you. As I mentioned yesterday, you’re brainwashed. All fundamental Protestants are brainwashed. The practice of brainwashing starts when the child is young, forcing him to memorize individual Bible verses without learning the context of the verses and how they relate to the Old Testament. Many such Protestants refuse to acknowledge the Old Testament at all, against Christ’s word that He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt. 5.17). The New Testament is entirely related to the Old Testament, and those who deny this are missing out on a tremendous amount of salvation history. Granted, you’ve used a few verses from the Old Testament, so I in no way am suggesting that this is in your belief system. Nonetheless, you’re a victim of brainwashing. The above method of brainwashing perpetuates ad infinitum, as it is the only way that fundamental Protestantism can subsist. It’s oppression against the young. In Catholicism, though, we teach our children about the faith, Church teaching to the extent that they can understand (without brainwashing), and as they grow older and can make deliberate choices to learn more about the faith, they do so and learn more about it. People convert to the Catholic faith by means of the free will that God gave man, not by oppression or brainwashing, like fundamental Protestantism does. We want our children willfully to choose a relationship with Christ, not impose a relationship with Him upon them. Your comments clearly show that your Biblical and theological understanding has likely come by means of this oppression and brainwashing, as your comments reflect that same oppression. Lying, heresy, and imposing what appears to be guilt trips fall into such brainwashing and oppression, as does claiming things against those who don’t agree with fundamental Protestantism (falsely, might I add, too) that the fundamental Protestant himself has does (e.g. hypocrisy, which I’ve implicitly mentioned that you’ve practiced). I sincerely pity you, Joe, for the sake of your own salvation. I pity those who may have been a victim alongside you as well as any possible victims at your own hands. I prayed for you yesterday because of this. I asked the Blessed Mother to intercede for the sake of your own salvation. I prayed for your conversion. Because God gave man free will, your conversion is in your hands, not mine. If you refuse to convert, that’s your own business, but I know that my prayers will not go unanswered, for as long as I pray with sincerity, the Lord will return my prayers to me with blessings, even if you do refuse to convert, but I will continue to pray for you.
I realize that this comment has been long, as I’ve mentioned that I don’t necessarily read your long posts, but I still chose to make it because I’m truly concerned for your spiritual safety.
Me: There have been many people over time that Catholics have forced to follow their sacraments. Recall the history of most of Latin America. Contrary to that, faith cannot be forced on anyone; it is a heart issue, not an actions issue. You call me brainwashed, yet I have taken the time to examine my beliefs as I was raised, as I know that chances are low of being raised in the "correct" faith. Have you done the same? Catholics are discouraged from questioning their beliefs, as I have been told by Catholics. What is there to hide? You pray to Mary for my conversion, but never in the Bible does in mention praying to anyone but God in Jesus' name. You use the term "Protestant" and you don't know what it means. You use it out of bitterness that people dissented from your "infallible" church (which also is never mentioned in the Bible), but just because groups broke off of the Catholic church doesn't mean they teach correct doctrine. Some preach a works salvation, some add baptism to it, some teach one can lose their salvation, while some teach the Biblical truths of salvation through faith and eternal security. Now if you would like to explain to me EXACTLY how you think you are going to make it to Heaven, not in the abstract, I'd be sincerely interested in hearing it.
Me: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html And if you'd like to know some differences between the Orthodox and Catholic church...Among them is that the Orthodox church denies "immaculate conception".
C3: Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament. The Jewish canon was decided in 90 AD where the deutrocanonical (Apocrypha) books were left out of their canon because they were trying to take out the references to Jesus as the Messiah. Christ even makes references to the deutrocanonical such as in Matt. 7:16– 20 Christ is referencing Sirach 27:4 – 7.
“ Your talk shows your faults; it is like a sieve that separates out the rubbish. The way you think shows your character just as surely as a kiln shows any flaws in the pottery being fired. You can tell how well a tree has been cared for by the fruit it bears, and you can tell a person's feelings by the way he expresses himself. Never praise anyone before you hear him talk; that is the real test.” Sirach 27:4 – 7
“You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.“ Matt. 7:16 – 20
I think Christ who is the Word made flesh would probably know the Word of God backwards and forwards.
Joe, everyone here knows the Orthodox have differences from the Catholics otherwise we would be united at this time. Some of these claimed differences by the Orthodox mentioned in your article are inaccurate and do not reflect what Roman Catholics actually teach, practice, and believe as you would see by reading the Catechism. These differences do not change historical fact that until 1054, the Catholics and the Orthodox were all one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. As stated earlier the Catholic Church is not just Roman Catholic, as the Eastern Catholics such as the Melekite Catholics whom are very much like the Orthodox in spiritual and theology expression. I see a lot more similarities than differences between Catholics, particularly the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox as I have already pointed out at least once before.
Here is a great website for learning some basics about the Eastern Catholic Traditions: http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm But we all know you’re just going to keep on twisting history to fit your agenda. Overall this discussion has become an endless loop because you insist on attempting to rehash things we have already discussed. Frankly, it’s an annoying waste of time.
Any proof we provide that contradicts what you believe, no matter how many sources written by well respected individuals in the field of Theology and Theological Studies disagree with you; will never be enough and you ignore or discredit them all as if garbage because they couldn’t possibly be true. You have failed to provide proof in many cases and what little proof you do provide is seriously lacking in credibility or you don’t provide enough information to even find the source.
You have presented your view of Christianity as a Sola Scriptura view because you reject the tradition of the Apostles. Sola Scriptura meaning by Scripture alone is the doctrine that the Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian and the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. This is how you have represented your faith thus far.
Also, since when are we not allowed to question our faith? I have never been discouraged to question because without questioning you simply cannot grow and learn. Not saying it doesn’t happen, I am sure it sometimes does because an educator doesn’t know the answer themselves however it is not Catholic teaching to discourage the faithful from questions.
There is plenty more I could argue and defend but there is no point. It is painfully obvious that you don’t know what you are talking about and are unwilling to learn actual history so I am done wasting my time here, its just not worth it to continue. Never joined this conversation to try and convert you to Catholicism but I hoped you would at least want to know what we actually believe not the myths and lies you’ve been taught.
C1: " Now if you would like to explain to me EXACTLY how you think you are going to make it to Heaven..."
Oh look, he dropped that cliche Protestant "Catholics are going to Hell" trope! Sometimes I think Protestant anti-Catholic bigotry and denial of history is theologically worse than even atheism.
C2: Joe, the Catholic Church does not force people to receive the sacraments. From what do you get the idea that She does? Your own words have contradicted themselves. Earlier you spoke of “faith alone,” but after I repeatedly mentioned St. James’ famous words, you recanted “faith alone.” I’ve examined my sinful ways, and that’s why I’ve striven more strongly toward the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach to impose Her teachings upon anyone. You continually speak of “Catholics” in their practice but refuse to acknowledge Catholic teaching. Not all Catholics follow the Church’s teachings. I don’t “pray to” the Blessed Mother. I ask for her intercession. There’s a huge difference. Many Protestants don’t understand that. I do know what “Protestant” means, Joe. I’ve given nothing to indicate otherwise. I have no bitterness. I pray out of fraternal concern for you, Joe. I never said that the Catholic Church is infallible. Rather, Her teaching is infallible. That seems to be a concept that Protestants have trouble grasping. The concept is in the Bible, and I’ve mentioned its roots more than once. Refer to my appropriate comments. I’ll be entering the Kingdom of Heaven through repentance for my sins, thereby being receptive to Christ’s mercy, and after due time in Purgatory. Repentance will take the form of charity in the form of corporal and spiritual acts of mercy. Corporal acts of mercy take many forms, among them being helping the poor and praying for others, including their intentions.
Also, Joe, bigoted and condescending comments are no effective way to try to persuade another person to your belief or position. It’s no different than bullying.
[C1], I in no means like to correct you on your profile page, but sarcasm isn’t to best. I think that Joe needs a lot of prayers.
Pacifist #1: Pardon me.......but wouldn't it be easier to agree to disagree......and move on? Arguing over religious beliefs isn't going go anywhere except frustration for both parties
Me: I must have missed when I recanted faith alone. I said faith should be backed up with works. But works are not added to faith, they are a result of it.
The Catholic church, to my knowledge, does not force its views on anyone today, but has repeatedly over time. Most conquistadors came under the facade of spreading their religion (Catholicism) to those they conquered.
Praying for the intercession of the dead- also not in the Bible.
The article I gave was by the Orthodox church. I believe they would know their own beliefs, and if they really are that similar to you, would know yours. The idea behind looking at them compared to you, and even compared to something like Traditionalist Catholic teaching, is that all of you claim to be following the apostles' traditions, and all claim to be the true g church as Christ set it up. Yet there are differences, leading us to the conclusion that at least all but one of you has to be wrong. And you can't prove why your traditions are right and theirs are wrong, or why you are truly the real church. Hence I reject the claim that traditions are something to be relied upon. God gives no more revelations to man (see appropriate comment), hence extra-biblical teaching is not infallible. You mention a verse that sounds a little similar to another passage and say Jesus quoted from it. This offers no real proof to someone who isn't seeking to justify claims.
You want to try and do things through your church to earn God's mercy. God tells us: "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7). Why isn't it our righteousness? "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6). Later in the chapter they call upon God to remove their iniquity.
Continue your ad hominem attacks, I don't care. There is no weight of good deeds that can outweigh your sin. You have to trust God alone and give up relying on yourselves. God designed it that way so that He would receive all the glory.
C2: Joe, at one time you said that you didn't disagree with "Faith without works is dead." That's the same as disagreeing with "faith alone." Regardless of how one believes in the relationship between faith and works, there's no way to believe that "faith without works is dead" without disbelieving in "faith alone." The Catholic Church has not forced Her teaching on anyone. The conquistadors' actions were not Church teaching. Take a read of this article, Joe. It explains the roots of praying for the intercession of the saints and angels.
Gaudium Et Spes also talks about the intercessory power of the Blessed Mother. It’s in the last chapter.
All but one Christian religion is wrong in some way. Those that aren’t in communion with the Catholic Church don’t follow the full Truth in Christ. We’ve been showing you time and again, Joe, why the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ started. I’ve talked about the references to Tradition in the Bible, mentioning St. Paul’s praise of Tradition. Christ constantly reveals Himself to us in some way. He’s not some distant God that leaves His creation alone because He doesn’t care about it. Particularly, He reveals Himself through Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching is infallible for the reason that I mentioned earlier.
I never said anything about “earning” mercy. Christ gives us His mercy if we’re repentant. Refer to my previous explanation of the examples of repentance. I haven’t studied this particular verse, but similar verses by St. Paul in his usage of the word “works” refer to the 601 “laws” that the Pharisees and Sadducees instituted, as I’ve mentioned before. It in no way condemns as pointless charity. I haven’t attacked you, Joe, and you know full well. You’ve been the one attacking the Catholic Church. My sin is elsewhere, Joe, not in this thread, as far as I know, and neither Joey nor Michelle has corrected me, so I have no reason to believe that I have sinned in this thread. If I were you, though, I’d pull the plank out of my eye before suggesting that a splinter is in a Catholic’s eye. We cannot receive Christ’s mercy without first showing repentance for our sins, and that cannot come with “faith alone.”
I’ll continue asking the Blessed Mother to pray that Christ forgive you for your sins in this thread against Him, His Church, Joey, Michelle, and me, as the Blessed Mother has Christ’s ear.
Me: God reveals Himself to us in different ways, yes. Through the Catholic church, no. It is prideful and exclusive to claim that yours is the only way to trust in Christ, especially when you lack in evidence and have a shady past you are dancing around or outright denying. To say that salvation through faith alone, and that faith not leading to works shows it dead, is contradictory, shows that one accepts what they have been told, starting with your church's teaching is infallible and is the true church. You are leaning on it more than the God you claim created it, and it is all for nothing. Any idolatry of anything other than God is an abomination, and it seems the Catholic church is an is an idol for many, as is the pope and a number of "saints". Examine your heart. Christ has God's ear, nowhere, apart from human teaching, does it claim that Mary has Christ's ear or that you can earn his mercy by following your church's teachings, which is what you are doing. And since all humans are inherently sinful, our teaching, apart from the only infallible thing given to us, God's Word, is wrong. We're simply going in circles now. I will pray as I have been for God to prick your hearts and take you from religion to true faith in His Son. I won't be saying "I told you so" on Judgment Day, but I don't want to have the opportunity to. I've done what I can to present to you the gospel as clearly as possible. You are now accountable, but the choice is yours.
[After this an Orthodox parishioner jumped into the conversation via invite from one a Catholic friend. He had nothing really new to add, but took a very long time doing it. He made sure to “spread the truth in LOVE” by repeatedly stating claims I had never made and calling me “proud and arrogant and bigoted, and most of all, vastly uneducated and ignorant”. He also made the error (among many) of considering “Protestantism” all one religion, and equally clinging to tradition, though admittedly different traditions, playing right into my argument. As his comments do not pertain to this discussion on Catholicism, I did not include them; and as I said before, they are extensive and grammatically painful. When I reiterated that I was through with the conversation and that extra-biblical tradition means nothing, I was accused of not being able to answer him. I was also told, in the third person, that I am young (coming from a peer) and “he’ll probably be Orthodox or Roman Catholic in a few year.” Please, do not hold your breath.
C2 had the last words from the three for me: Joe, Truth is never prideful. The simple fact, as Christ spoke, is that the Catholic Church is the Church that He started, and thus when She teaches, She does so infallibly. I’ve presented the evidence to this end already. “Faith alone” and “faith without works is dead” are contradictory. That’s logic, Joe, aside from Truth. I haven’t spoken of idolatry whatsoever. The Catholic Church isn’t an idol; She’s the Church that Christ started. The Blessed Mother does have Christ’s ear. I’ve experience it myself. As I’ve said before, I’ve never said anything about “earning” Christ’s mercy. Refer to the appropriate comments that I’ve made. Since the Holy Spirit speaks through the teaching of the Catholic Church, Her teaching is infallible. You won’t be saying “I told you so,” on Judgment Day, because what you’ve been saying simply is heresy. I won’t be saying “I told you so,” either because I’ll still be asking the Blessed Mother to pray for the forgiveness of your sins in this thread and for your conversion to the Catholic faith. You, likewise, Joe, are accountable to repent of your sins in this thread and to convert to the Catholic faith.
Andrew, I fear that Joe has departed from this thread because, like the atheists and other anti-Catholics, he has realized that he can’t “win” this discussion. You, having much more knowledge certainly than I, have presented a knowledge that Joe can’t counter-argue, and in his sinful pride, he would rather depart in washing his hands of this discussion than try to learn and to understand the Truth of Christ. I deeply fear for his judgment by Christ and will continue to pray for him.
All of this with no proof as to why the Catholic church is Christ’s church, and why its teaching is infallible. He is correct one on point: I can’t “win” the discussion. It takes an infallible God to break hearts hardened by years of teaching by false religion.